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Kikubaaqudgha August 10, 2018 13:27

I need some advice for my stealth build
1 Attachment(s)

I'm actually pretty excited, my character is soon entering the lair of Morgoth.
The last time I was 1000ft (which was also the first time) I was killed pretty quickly because I didn't know what to expect, the only things I know come from the manual.

So here I am, humbly asking for some advice to get a sil and maybe win this run. I don't really know how the crown thingy work and what to expect from the ascencion. I don't really know what weapon I should take (quickblade or shortsword?)
I don't really know where I should spend my xp, and if I should 'grind' at 950ft.

Char Dump: (TY wobbly) I'm playing the 1.3 Ver

Here are my abilities:
Melee: Finesse Subtetly
Archery: Careful Shot
Evasion: Leaping Sprinting
Stealth: Assasination Cruelblow Dexterity
Perception: LoreMaster Focused Attack Listen
Will: Inner Light
Song: Silence and Lorient

wobbly August 10, 2018 13:33

character dump is @ then s

wobbly August 10, 2018 13:39

Ok, so are you planning to fight or use lorien? Lorien looks safer. If you are going to fight you'll want more will or at least extra FA. If you plan to sneak & sing, just get that song high & take woven themes (lorien/silence). You'll either want something sharp or big for the crown & a way to boost your str. Good luck

Kikubaaqudgha August 10, 2018 13:46

Im planning to use lorien.

Is my deathblade big enough? Can I crit the crown? Do I need a 2-handed weapon?
Also, how does singing work vs morgoth? is he gonna just drop the crown like that? then I have to attack the crown thing?

Should I spend all my xp in song or is my stealth not high enough to go undetected?

Sorry for all those questions :)

wobbly August 10, 2018 13:54

You can't crit the crown. The mithril greatsword will be better if you can get the str (!str). Just more damage is better. or sharp. or Angrist. Angrist you'll get 2.

Crown will drop if you sing next to him. then you 'k' it to get a sil. You'll have to beat his will with your song, that's why I'd prefer more song & more grace. If you have woven themes you can use silence for stealth. Also he's not the most perceptive in the throne room, keep your distance from the C.

_freedom & floor lights(feanorian lamps you drop on the ground) might also be a good idea. If you get the 2 big spiders in the throne room, it's very hard to see.

Kikubaaqudgha August 10, 2018 14:09

Thank you very much for your answer!

Just one last question, what do you mean 'keep your distance from the C'? what is the C?

wobbly August 10, 2018 14:13


Oh you have loremaster. Hit ~, you'll see the numbers. There's a penalty for lorien. That's in the manual, just use search. It's a d10 opposed rolls. ties to defender.

Kikubaaqudgha August 10, 2018 14:20

Thank you again!

Kikubaaqudgha August 10, 2018 18:53

1 Attachment(s)
Sorry it's me again, the tension is at its height,
I found Morgoth and I put him asleep pretty easily but I can't find his crown.
Should I be on an adjacent square? You talked about the 'k' key but that one is for destroying an item right? When the crown will eventually drop shouldn't I be able to just move into it to attack it like a regular enemy?
When Im attacking it, should I use the song of silence as the main theme?

Sorry again, I normally don't ask so much help but I'm totally panicking being so close to the goal.

wobbly August 10, 2018 19:46

It's fine.

Use ^p I think to see previous. There should be 2 messages 1 for it sliding down. 1 for it falling off. k as in destroy. If you've only got the 1st message keep singing

Quirk August 10, 2018 21:47

You will by the way want to switch to Silence when you are actually attacking the crown. Be very careful about trying to get more than one Sil with Morgoth next to the crown. I have managed to get three with a pacifist but lured Morgoth away with a horn to do so.

You may still wake him up. If that happens you need to get out of his way fast relying on Quickness and dodge behind a pillar to reduce his alertness.

Good luck from me also.

Quirk August 10, 2018 21:50

Oh, and learn from mistakes I have made :)
(I did make it in the end though -

Kikubaaqudgha August 10, 2018 22:07

Weird, I'm actually next to him and still no crown, possibly a bug?
Maybe because I'm playing 1.3?

I've got messages telling me that monsters are reluctant hitting me and that there is a strange 'tension'

Quirk August 11, 2018 03:22


Originally Posted by Kikubaaqudgha (Post 132689)
Weird, I'm actually next to him and still no crown, possibly a bug?
Maybe because I'm playing 1.3?

I've got messages telling me that monsters are reluctant hitting me and that there is a strange 'tension'

Have you seen a message to the effect that his crown has fallen off? If not you won't find it on the floor.

Kikubaaqudgha August 11, 2018 10:06

No, I got no messages mentioning the crown, but I’m singing around him and he is asleep

wobbly August 11, 2018 11:26

Distance weakens the song. You'll probably have to risk being adjacent to him. So you sleep him from a distance and the crown "slips" but is still on. Sing silence and move next to him. Sing lorien while stationary till the crown "falls off". Use !grace if you need to. I'd be at full buff if I had the spare consumables, I'm unsure what you have. Good luck, I'm sure it's tense being stuck where you are.

I'm at work so I wont be around much, hopefully Quirk will drop by if I don't.

Quirk August 11, 2018 11:34

You should have seen the message about the crown slipping at least in your message history. Can you see the one about Morgoth falling asleep?

Kikubaaqudgha August 11, 2018 11:53

In fact, I could ‘see’ Morgoth w/ the listen ability and he was unwary, but when I really saw him he was already asleep, so I didnt get any message, no message telling me that morgoth fell asleep and no message mentioning the crown.
I already tried being adjacent but still nothing.

Quirk August 11, 2018 13:17

Trying to replicate this in wizard mode and I think I may have found some kind of bug. Can confirm it affects original Sil, haven't tested Sil-Q yet.

How much Will does Morgoth have at the moment? You have Lore Master right?

His will is increased when the crown drops. 20 is his base, 25 is what it should look after the drop. I'm looking at him in a game with 35. This is consistent after a reload. That is buggy.

I don't know if it's the same bug - my Morgoth is awake. Good news is that taking him from awake to asleep again makes him drop the crown.

Kikubaaqudgha August 11, 2018 13:25

Actually he has 20 Will

Is there a way to make him unwary then asleep again?

Quirk August 11, 2018 13:34


Originally Posted by Kikubaaqudgha (Post 132720)
Actually he has 20 Will

Is there a way to make him unwary then asleep again?

You will need to wake him up. Waking him up involves making noise. Making noise is more than a little dangerous.

I would recommend searching your surroundings for a horn.

Lower will is good news.

So far I've only been able to replicate this on Windows. This may or may not explain why I hadn't seen anything like this over a bunch of runs.

Kikubaaqudgha August 11, 2018 13:37

Is there another way to make noise except horns? :D

Can I throw him something?

wobbly August 11, 2018 13:56

Songs, doors, throwing, hitting a wall with a mattock. I'd prefer not being in LOS when he wakes

The easterling spys will wake him, if you are confident about sleeping them then vanishing

Kikubaaqudgha August 11, 2018 14:00

Ok€™ funny stuff I was behind him when I throw him a potion of slow poison, he woke up, did his earthquake stuff, actually rubble protected me, he was unable to reach me, but now I can€™t find him anywhere

Nevermind I found him

Making him asleep WHILE I can see him worked, he dropped the crown

I got a sil but Morgoth is sleeping on the stairs!

Ok I managed to go up my hearth is beating

wobbly August 11, 2018 14:03

Rubble blocks sound. Full ruble will vanish you, but yu can't use listen.

Quirk August 11, 2018 14:11

Bug update - looks like quitting and restarting the application brings the Will back to where it should be. It is also present in Sil-Q sadly. I hoped it might be related to some memory corruption issues I fixed in Sil-Q a while back.

Quirk August 11, 2018 14:45


Originally Posted by Quirk (Post 132726)
Bug update - looks like quitting and restarting the application brings the Will back to where it should be. It is also present in Sil-Q sadly. I hoped it might be related to some memory corruption issues I fixed in Sil-Q a while back.

More than this - there is a very definite bug if you knock the crown off and then quit and reload your character without restarting the application. The will application is carried out twice. This is where the horrible flaky old code base makes me want to quit maintaining it; there's a morass of bad practice in many of the core bits and fixing it is not much fun.

Quirk August 11, 2018 14:56

Aha. I think this might be the whole Will related bug.

Basically if you don't quit the application fully it saves Morgoth in whatever state he was in when you last saw him and then applies the post-crown increments. The workaround for that bug for now is not to load a character from the menu twice but to quit and reload the application.

I am not sure that this is actually related to your sleeping Morgoth who didn't drop his crown so I'm continuing to look further.

Quirk August 11, 2018 15:08

Sleeping Morgoth is a different bug - it is as you thought, if he falls asleep but you don't see it there's no crown drop. Fixing in Sil-Q.

Kikubaaqudgha August 11, 2018 15:18

Thank you very much both of you!
I made it and I don't think I could have made it without you! It's been a lot of fun and scary as hell!

The ascension was hard, I didn't know Morgoth and all of his crew would follow me!, I didn't know if I could kill the guardian of the gates so I fled (without potion of quickness), I had 30/100 hp and poisoned 100 during my last turn!

Here is the dump if some of you are interested:

My run was overall pretty messy, full melee early, then I did some archery, I switched to stealth a bit too early, I always struggled to survive at the min depth, learned to sing in late game (I should have done it earlier, it was the first time i spent xp in song) and the throne room was fun, I didn't think I would win after waking up Morgoth and all of the enemies.

For your bug-fixing quest, I think it is worth mentioning that I'm playing on Windows and I did at lot of saving/loading while I was in the throne room.

Again, Thank you very much! :)

Quirk August 11, 2018 21:35

Congratulations on the win! I hope the bug discovery wasn't too off-putting.

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