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-   -   Anti-Summoning Corridors (http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthread.php?t=1440)

TJS February 4, 2009 13:57

Anti-Summoning Corridors
 
Am I the only one who doesn't like the idea of ASCs? It seems that summons for some enemies are so disproportionate that you need to dig a big tunnel and sit at the end of it.

It's part of what puts me off the later stages of the game, when these huge summons happen I start to lose interest a bit. I can't be bothered to carve out tunnels and learn the best type of corridor to make. It all seems a bit daft to me really.

Is there an argument for toning down the number of monsters summoned? Or have a maximum number that each monster can summon?

Donald Jonker February 4, 2009 14:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by TJS (Post 14879)
Am I the only one who doesn't like the idea of ASCs?

Probably not. I actually like them though, the idea of setting traps and exploiting the monsters' weaknesses. I'd like more tactical options like ASCs to be available to the player - complex manipulations of terrain and walls and LOS to rout the enemy in a multitude of ways depending on the monster AI type and the lay of the land. Maybe that's not Angband. But it could be.

I sympathize with your perspective, though. A simple cycle of chain summoning fixed by an ASC broken by teleport-to broken by another ASC and so on. I suppose I haven't spent enough time in the endgame to be fed up with it. An upper-limit on total monsters summoned starting with the originary summoner doesn't seem unreasonable.

tigpup February 4, 2009 16:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by TJS (Post 14879)
Am I the only one who doesn't like the idea of ASCs?

I think ASCs are OK in mid game. I play a lot of NPP w/ quests, and using an ASC is a nice way of taking down a small d pit. Not so much an ASC, but an anti-breath-corridor. I know there are other ways to tackle these situations, but it seems fair to me in this phase of the game.

It's not quite to effective against an undead put, bit I think that's also fair enough.

If you're against ACSs, I'm not sure what could be done. More monsters with pass_wall, tele_to etc might help, but that would have an impact on other tactics too.

-Neil

buzzkill February 5, 2009 01:41

Since ASC's seem to be common practice among ***WINNERS***, and high level uniques aren't idiots. Has anyone ever considered tweaking the AI (maybe just for a select few) so that the Sauron's and Morgoth's of the world can deal with those meddlesome adventurers and their ASC's more effectively.

I mean, really, that's what I'd do if I was an evil maintainer. I wouldn't even notify anyone of the change. Let them figure it out for themselves.

Donald Jonker February 5, 2009 02:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by buzzkill (Post 14940)
Since ASC's seem to be common practice among ***WINNERS***, and high level uniques aren't idiots. Has anyone ever considered tweaking the AI (maybe just for a select few) so that the Sauron's and Morgoth's of the world can deal with those meddlesome adventurers and their ASC's more effectively.

I mean, really, that's what I'd do if I was an evil maintainer.

No need. Morgoth laughs in derision at ASC's (he tunnels through walls), and so do many of Sauron's pals. Uniques with teleport-to are complicated as well. ASC's are useful, but far from a panacea.

Zikke February 5, 2009 14:42

Morgoth doesn't even worry about tunneling through the walls. He just smashes you once and the dungeon shatters and there goes your ASC. That's why I had to fight him in the corner of the map.

I don't consider ASCs to be cheating of any sort. Logically, if you're going to be fighting something that summons a ton of nasty things, then pull them into a narrow place where numbers don't matter.

This was the opening scene in 300. Not a very alien or unrealistic tactic. :)

Larvitz February 5, 2009 17:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zikke (Post 14959)
Morgoth doesn't even worry about tunneling through the walls. He just smashes you once and the dungeon shatters and there goes your ASC. That's why I had to fight him in the corner of the map.

I don't consider ASCs to be cheating of any sort. Logically, if you're going to be fighting something that summons a ton of nasty things, then pull them into a narrow place where numbers don't matter.

This was the opening scene in 300. Not a very alien or unrealistic tactic. :)

Yeah, I love ASC's. It's like "I have unlimited stamina!" after hacking down Troll/Orc/Whatever is en masse one after another in some kind of epic victory that generally leads to some kind of victory cry much like the even more epic Sparta kick.


Mmmhmm.

Slick February 5, 2009 21:37

I don't really feel strongly on the issue, but I find that ASCs are unfortunately a necessary inconvenience. Higher level summoners generally can't be defeated without creating either an unwinnable or at least a very undesirable state of crowd control. When higher level monsters have enough hitpoints and high enough summoning frequency that you can't defeat them without an ASC, then the strategy (used loosely) is mundane and can be boring. This is doubly true for summoners that summon other summoners.

In an effort to introduce some amount of variety and flavor in dealing with summoners, I would submit that the game be evaluated so as to give other reasonable alternatives to the ASC. Some ideas would be temporary anti-summoning field (scroll, spell, staff or similar) or make summoners susceptible to other effects which would temporarily prevent summoning (darkness, confusion, prayer, whatever). Or simply reduce the summoning frequency so as to make high speed + damage viable for a toe-to-toe fight reasonably effective.

Pure summoners (Q's) do present some challenge due to their immobility and if they are in open spaces, but with patience and a little luck, if you really want to kill them, you can get them to blink into a convenient area where you can limit their summoning real estate to make it achievable.

Just my $ 10EE-2

Pete Mack February 5, 2009 21:47

It's possible to use a few doors and a closed in hallway, and teleport other. It's also possible to use a destroyed area. It's also possible to use shock & awe--a Ranger with Bard and branded/slay ammo doesn't need an ASC.

Larvitz February 6, 2009 16:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slick (Post 15007)
In an effort to introduce some amount of variety and flavor in dealing with summoners, I would submit that the game be evaluated so as to give other reasonable alternatives to the ASC. Some ideas would be temporary anti-summoning field (scroll, spell, staff or similar) or make summoners susceptible to other effects which would temporarily prevent summoning (darkness, confusion, prayer, whatever). Or simply reduce the summoning frequency so as to make high speed + damage viable for a toe-to-toe fight reasonably effective.

Another interesting alternative would be to make Warriors and maybe Rogues have the Anti-magic field like in Z((+))Band, to prevent the classes that primarily melee from having to dig one every time... maybe not a large field, but perhaps just large enough to where if you get up close and personal, ((perhaps within 3-4 spaces)), that they would be prevented from Summoning. Of course, this could be turned off in the cases of Morgoth, etc, since half of the battle with them would be the whole figuring out how to kill them, etc.


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