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-   -   The future of Oangband? (http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthread.php?t=4551)

Nick June 25, 2011 23:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJNyfalt (Post 55928)
Not because of hard monster, no. It is because of lack of consumables and how hard it is to get enough money stocked up to start diving. The main problems seems to be identify and word of recall. Lack of identify stops me from clearing out stuff from inventory/home, while lack of WoR keeps me from going deeper than dlvl 3.

The WoR problem I only find occasionally annoying, but the ID is a big one for O. The other thing to remember is that the comp character gets the spell and early easy recharge - I usually play SF necros, and there the ID issue is just awful.

Quote:

I have to consider different solutions to these problems.
FA has used the following:
  1. ID by use (like Vanilla's, but better :))
  2. unidentified things will still stack if they would identified
  3. Rods of Perception are shallower and more common
  4. Mages get the spell earlier and cheaper

the Invisible Stalker June 26, 2011 14:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJNyfalt (Post 55928)
I decided to try out the next competition character to get a feel of things that needs fixing, and it clearly stands out that the early game is too annoying.

Not because of hard monster, no. It is because of lack of consumables and how hard it is to get enough money stocked up to start diving. The main problems seems to be identify and word of recall. Lack of identify stops me from clearing out stuff from inventory/home, while lack of WoR keeps me from going deeper than dlvl 3.
I have to consider different solutions to these problems. For example:
- Like I mentioned earlier: study the vanilla identification model.
- Just make the scrolls really cheap and always in stock.
- A Diablo II approach of using scroll books. Making these unsellable and give players a decent stock at start would speed up gameplay while preventing them from being abused for money.

I am also open to other ideas.

I don't agree with this at all. I think you just haven't played enough. There are ways around these problems which you learn with practice. My solutions to the problems you listed are:

Identify: The most important thing is not to pick up everything you see. Sure that dagger on dlevel 1 might be a Defender, but it probably isn't. In fact it almost certainly isn't worth an identify scroll, or even a charge on a staff of perception. I rarely pick up weapons or armour before dlevel 10. Wands and staves are much better, as they are more likely to be valuable and can largely be identified by use, cautiously of course. Scrolls and potions are best identified by selling in the early game.

WoR: I don't use WoR to go down in the early game. I often don't use it to go down in the mid or late game, as I often don't want to go down to my max depth. So I am using one scroll per trip. I just need to make sure that I collect some stuff worth one scroll per trip. Since I typical dive to at least dlevel 12 on my first trip I am almost certain to find something.

In general I don't think you should be considering changes in game mechanics until you have played more. You risk solving problems which don't really exist.

myshkin June 27, 2011 02:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick (Post 55565)
Agreed - I do like the results, though. The V devteam is working on UTF-8 support, so if you wait a bit there'll be a correct solution available.

You can see the latest attempts on my utf-8 branch on github. noz has done almost all of the heavy lifting. We still have a ways to go, though.

Magnate June 27, 2011 21:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by myshkin (Post 56015)
You can see the latest attempts on my utf-8 branch on github. noz has done almost all of the heavy lifting. We still have a ways to go, though.

Out of interest, how much of what we have left to do is front-end-specific? Because one wonders whether it's worth investing in that or the core-UI split.

myshkin June 27, 2011 23:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magnate (Post 56061)
Out of interest, how much of what we have left to do is front-end-specific? Because one wonders whether it's worth investing in that or the core-UI split.

I've only worked on the OS X port, which still has a few problems specific to it...things like redraw artifacts, occasional problems with detecting character widths, etc. I am pretty sure that the core-UI split would help to simplify the UTF-8 code; for example, one of the big problems to resolve is how to handle the visuals editor. (I will grant that takkaria didn't explicitly discuss the visuals editor, but I would expect a core-UI split to rethink interacting with such pickers.) A cleanup of main-crb.c would also help my particular plight.

CJNyfalt June 28, 2011 23:34

I have to say that the most frustrating things are ports that I am not able to compile and error-check (windows, OS X) and syncing code with vanilla and getting a lot of formating issues in the diffs.

As for the X-chars and UTF8 issues, I think the best solution is to not include anything before Vanilla has adopted UTF8. The relevant code lines that calls on x-chars are few and stand out so I can avoid them.

Continuing to the identify issue, I am starting to consider changing pseudo-id so that it is instant or very fast, but no longer detects curses. How does that sounds?

the Invisible Stalker June 29, 2011 08:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJNyfalt (Post 56166)
Continuing to the identify issue, I am starting to consider changing pseudo-id so that it is instant or very fast, but no longer detects curses. How does that sounds?

Some variants do that already. But if you're going to do that then you might as well never generate average items, as people will just carry them briefly and drop them when pseudo-id kicks in. An idea which I don't think has been tried yet is to make pseudo-id faster but unreliable, so a character who has cheap identify has an incentive to use it, even if the item seems average, but characters who don't have cheap identify still get some benefit from pseudo-id.

CJNyfalt June 29, 2011 11:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by the Invisible Stalker (Post 56191)
An idea which I don't think has been tried yet is to make pseudo-id faster but unreliable, so a character who has cheap identify has an incentive to use it, even if the item seems average, but characters who don't have cheap identify still get some benefit from pseudo-id.

Interesting idea. I can not say if I will use it, but thinking about it I feel that it shouldn't be made too unreliable. Off by one level for strong pseudo might work, so good->average or average->good would be ok, but not excellent->average.

buzzkill June 29, 2011 13:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJNyfalt (Post 56166)
Continuing to the identify issue, I am starting to consider changing pseudo-id so that it is instant or very fast, but no longer detects curses. How does that sounds?

I'd think I'd rather like to see the number of cursed items decrease. ID-by-use combined with weak pseudo sucks because so many early finds are sticky-cursed. If only, let's say, 10% of items were sticky cursed, then wielding un-ID'd stuff wouldn't be so bad.

Another idea is to nerf "It feels deathly cold". First, make the sticky-curse more rare. Let characters wield bad (formerly cursed) items without knowing it, without receiving the "deathly cold" message. This leaves it up to the player to notice it through in-game observation, or pseudo {cursed} or {bad}status to appear.

With the comp character, I was low on ID (as always), but I did have a store bought scroll of remove curse. I started wielding un-ID'd rings figuring I would just remove any bad (sticky-cursed) rings. I ended up wearing an un-ID'd non-cursed Ring of Aggravation for a loooooong time before I realized it.

Zireael July 3, 2011 16:31

What version of Oangband is the newest (and has the original Unlight)? I'd like to look at it...


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