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-   -   Sil-Q 1.4.1 release (http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthread.php?t=9223)

Quirk February 6, 2019 08:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by seraph (Post 136008)
should it not be the automatic pick? what's the competition, longswords? without rings of damage, deathblades and momentum, a 1d8 1lb shortsword is pretty much the only viable option. but at a difficulty of 19, one would probably be better off putting points into melee, stealth, perception etc. and grabbing the first 1d8 shortsword you find. heck it might even have an ego. the goal is to boost smithing after all.

With Finesse having shaved off an extra point on crit cost since the Sil 1.3 days (before you could take your crit base from 7 to 4, now it's 7 to 3), you really don't need rings of damage, momentum, etc for stabbers to be extremely effective.

Poison, artifact and 1d6 daggers are actually quite decent now. Artifact shortswords are acceptable to good. A 1d8 1.5 lb shortsword is still good, but slightly worse average damage than a 1d6 poison dagger.

Currently I'm not terribly concerned with boosting Smithing - it's showing up on 2/3rds of winners as is and I think that's a little on the high side.

Quirk February 6, 2019 09:20

Just to throw some numbers out there:
Currently a 1d6 dagger is average damage 3.5 per die, on a crit base of 3.5 (with Finesse and Subtlety).
A 1d8 1.5 lb shortsword is average damage 4.5 per die, on a crit base of 4.5.
Shortsword gains a little because its first die is higher, though the dagger is more reliably close to average because it rolls more dice i.e. less likely to leave a barely damaged opponent.

With the old crit base of 4 this is somewhat equivalent to a 2 lb 1d11 deathblade (ignoring the melee bonuses) or a 1 lb 1d9 shortsword.

A 1 lb 1d8 shortsword gains slightly more than an extra 10% average damage. This is slightly better than having a 1d12 2 lb weapon in Sil 1.3. It's very strong. It feels wrong to have it easily smithable at 100'.

Part of the goal has been to make daggers actually useful. I think at present they are, though the vanilla 1d5 ones are probably unsavable.

seraph February 8, 2019 08:53

at a difficulty of 14 (sum of it's parts) a 1d8 1lb short sword is not easy to smith at 100'. it's achievable, but even if you did it you'd probably regret having sunk so much xp into smithing. shortswords seem to take a long time to get good in my experience.

lets say you have a 4 grace feanor. you take 7 points of smithing for 2800 xp. plus armoursmith and enchant to make +2 gloves to get up to 14 plus weaponsmith. 1500 + 2800 = 4300 xp. 4 + 7 + 1(affinity) + 2 = 14 smithing

you have very little xp left for melee/evasion let alone finesse and subtlety.



i'll concede that perhaps shortswords are op in the late game though; i'm still experimenting. even so, i'm not sure i like this solution.

Quirk February 8, 2019 17:20

Well, Sil's "simple" mechanics come with a cost: outside certain parameters they break hard. There's a sweet spot you can optimise weights, to hit and damage dice around, but only so many weapons can exist in it and be recognisably different from each other. Letting people add damage sides and alter weights can easily swing things into broken territory and soon you have vanilla weapons far better than already strong artifacts and game balance turns upside down.

Another solution might be to prevent item weight being altered by smithing beyond the 2/3 or 3/2 ratios from the base weight that are used as min and max weights on weapon drops and moving shortsword base weight to 2 lb. This also fixes the brokenness at the cost of making other items less flexible in smithing than before.

You said also you had some other thoughts I think?

Quirk February 8, 2019 18:21

On more pondering, it's definitely better to tighten smithable weight to match drop weight.

Smithing outside drop weight is rare, and almost only used to make vanilla weapons broken in some way. It will be easier to balance things if I don't have to worry about it and I can afford to make weight changes cheaper if I'm less worried extreme weight will make things broken.

Also, making the default shortsword 1d9 instead of 1d8 makes it a bit better for non-stabbing usage.

I guess this is it for 1 lb shortswords.

seraph February 11, 2019 04:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quirk (Post 136064)
Also, making the default shortsword 1d9 instead of 1d8 makes it a bit better for non-stabbing usage.

i'm a little confused here. 1d7 is the default. are you adding the str bonus?

Quirk February 11, 2019 08:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by seraph (Post 136092)
i'm a little confused here. 1d7 is the default. are you adding the str bonus?

Yes, sorry for being unclear. I mean that the 1d7 1.5 lb shortsword does 1d8 damage with the bonus, a 1d7 2 lb shortsword 1d9. Without any reduction from Finesse or Subtlety, the latter is straightforwardly better if you can muster the second Str (though worse than a longsword or curved sword in most practical contexts). They're close to the same with Finesse and Subtlety.

Quirk February 11, 2019 08:48

As a by-the-way, I'm introducing a new 1 lb weapon in the next release. Throwing Axes are being deprecated in favour of Hand Axes: a 5d1 1 lb weapon (so 5d2 with Str 1). This is a little on the weaker side, but with Power becomes quite reasonable. I had already removed damage side bonuses on rings and gloves to tone down Smithing a little.

There are quite a few new things in my development release. For Melee lovers, I think I have a more interesting and elegant skill to replace Anticipate; Smite lets you roll maximum damage on your first attack of the turn when you're wielding a two handed weapon, at the cost of taking an additional turn to recover (i.e. your opponents get to move twice when you attack). The high damage overwhelms armour and kills quickly, but being committed for an extra turn comes with some danger.

Scatha February 11, 2019 10:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quirk (Post 136101)
For Melee lovers, I think I have a more interesting and elegant skill to replace Anticipate; Smite lets you roll maximum damage on your first attack of the turn when you're wielding a two handed weapon, at the cost of taking an additional turn to recover (i.e. your opponents get to move twice when you attack). The high damage overwhelms armour and kills quickly, but being committed for an extra turn comes with some danger.

My first thought: great spear assassin. But I'm not sure that it's actually better with spears. Anyway it's an elegant design.

Quirk February 11, 2019 12:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scatha (Post 136105)
My first thought: great spear assassin. But I'm not sure that it's actually better with spears. Anyway it's an elegant design.

Thank you.

I'm planning to have the "first attack" encompass all enemies hit by the swing so e.g. Follow Through, Whirlwind Attack and Impale would all be capable of heavy damage to multiple opponents. All these skills are currently on the weaker side so I don't anticipate this overpowering them. Zone of Control, Riposte, Rapid Attack are unaffected.

Prerequisites wise I'm currently looking at Charge and Knockback.


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