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-   -   Sil-Q 1.4.1 release (http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthread.php?t=9223)

Destragon May 3, 2019 16:54

Hey, I'm still very much a newbie at Sil, so my opinions here aren't backed up by a lot of experience, but I like the game a lot so far and would like to post some suggestions anyway.

I saw that scepters are getting removed in version 1.4.2 probably because they don't have much of a purpose as weapons, but I think there might actually still be a niche for them. They could still be useful for their effects or as stat boost items for pacifists or for fighters as a replacement to a shield. Maybe they should not even count as weapons at all and be equiped straight like a shield (although hardcore pacifists might still want to combine them with one). They'd essentially be jewelry, but for a hand slot, and that's why I'd also think of moving them from the weapon smithing ability to the jewelry smithing one. That would mean that pacifist players could take up jewelry smithing to get a stat boosting scepter for their hand slot. Maybe crowns could also be swapped to the jewelry smithing ability? I don't know if that would make the ability too strong though.
I just like the idea of some wizard like character carrying a scepter of power in their off-hand, like Gandalf in the movies, to boost their song magic power.

Doesn't the Song of Staunching have a very similar effect to the removed Song of Este? Why don't you just reuse the old name then?

The description of the Puncture ability is "Whenever an enemy's armour roll exceeds your archery damage roll, the enemy armour roll is reduced to zero, and you deal the enemy three damage."
The "enemy armour roll is reduced to zero" part makes it sound like you will deal your full normal damage + 3 additional damage, but that's not what it actually does, is it? I'm assuming it's only supposed to deal the 3 damage and your actual damage roll is ignored? In that case, that part should be removed from the text.

The Accurate weapon trait lets you reroll missed attacks. I haven't been mathing in a while, so I find it a bit difficult to compare this bonus to the normal accuracy boni that weapons normally have. In an attack where your hit bonus is equal to the enemy evade bonus, this reroll increases your hit chance by about as much as a hit bonus of +5 or +6, right? Is there a particular reason why this trait uses rerolls instead of just adding +5 or so hit bonus to the weapon?

The new Hand Axe does 5d1 damage. This might just be me, but doesn't a damage stat with a high amount of dice and a low amount of sides fit better to a blunt weapon? Like the war hammer with its very similar 4d1. It means the weapon is bad for sneak attacks and gets substantially more powerful the stronger the wielder is. Sounds to me like it wouldn't have much of an edge. An axe, I think, fits better with a more even ratio of numbers. Maybe a club or mace would be better flavor for this 1lb 5d1 weapon type?
Anyway, that's just my personal interpretation.

Quirk May 3, 2019 22:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Destragon (Post 138205)
Hey, I'm still very much a newbie at Sil, so my opinions here aren't backed up by a lot of experience, but I like the game a lot so far and would like to post some suggestions anyway.

Hi Destragon! Feedback is always welcome. Thanks for chipping in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Destragon (Post 138205)
I saw that scepters are getting removed in version 1.4.2 probably because they don't have much of a purpose as weapons, but I think there might actually still be a niche for them. They could still be useful for their effects or as stat boost items for pacifists or for fighters as a replacement to a shield.

So there are various reasons that drove me to get rid of them.
1) They barely appear in Tolkien. Gandalf has a staff, not a sceptre (though in the Hobbit it is sometimes called a wand).
2) The few times they do appear they're kingly regalia - not something that would be littering the floor at 100'. They'd possibly make sense as artefacts, but the Rod of Thu is about the only mention of a sceptre I can think of that dates from the First Age, and I decided it probably wasn't worth the effort of special casing it as I did for crowns.
3) Pacifists are a relatively rare taste, and artefacts that are only really good for pacifists are a disappointment for everyone else.
4) If I do introduce something to boost Song in the hand slot, it will probably be a harp. Harps are all over the First Age.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Destragon (Post 138205)
Doesn't the Song of Staunching have a very similar effect to the removed Song of Este? Why don't you just reuse the old name then?

Song of Staunching is in fact an actual song from Tolkien's canon
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lay of Leithian
Therewith the smart he swift allayed,
while Luthien murmuring in the shade
the staunching song, what Elvish wives
long years had sung in those sad lives
of war and weapons, wove o'er him.

while Song of Este was not. While there are certain similarities, also, there are several differences: Staunching operates directly on health rather than via regeneration, it cures bleeding, it does not shorten the duration of other status effects. It felt cleaner to give it a new name and free it from old perceptions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Destragon (Post 138205)
The description of the Puncture ability is "Whenever an enemy's armour roll exceeds your archery damage roll, the enemy armour roll is reduced to zero, and you deal the enemy three damage."
The "enemy armour roll is reduced to zero" part makes it sound like you will deal your full normal damage + 3 additional damage, but that's not what it actually does, is it? I'm assuming it's only supposed to deal the 3 damage and your actual damage roll is ignored? In that case, that part should be removed from the text.

Help with the wording would be appreciated, certainly. It doesn't say "additional damage", so I'm not sure of your reading here, but it may be close enough to need clarification. Omitting "the enemy armour roll is reduced to zero" however doesn't specify that your three damage is unblocked.

In any case your damage roll is ignored, the enemy armour roll is ignored, and you deal three damage against an ignored enemy armour roll. Perhaps "Whenever an enemy's armour roll exceeds your archery damage roll, you deal the enemy three damage through their armour"?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Destragon (Post 138205)
The Accurate weapon trait lets you reroll missed attacks. I haven't been mathing in a while, so I find it a bit difficult to compare this bonus to the normal accuracy boni that weapons normally have. In an attack where your hit bonus is equal to the enemy evade bonus, this reroll increases your hit chance by about as much as a hit bonus of +5 or +6, right? Is there a particular reason why this trait uses rerolls instead of just adding +5 or so hit bonus to the weapon?

Rerolls increase the chance of hitting while having less impact on the chance of critically hitting, so it's not quite the same as a hefty Melee bonus. Largely it's there for variety, which is always hard to come by in a game with such a tight mathematical core; rerolls have already been in Sil for a while thanks to the Sil curse, but have historically worked against the player. The new trait lets you operate the same skew in your favour when you're on the attack.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Destragon (Post 138205)
The new Hand Axe does 5d1 damage. This might just be me, but doesn't a damage stat with a high amount of dice and a low amount of sides fit better to a blunt weapon? Like the war hammer with its very similar 4d1. It means the weapon is bad for sneak attacks and gets substantially more powerful the stronger the wielder is. Sounds to me like it wouldn't have much of an edge. An axe, I think, fits better with a more even ratio of numbers. Maybe a club or mace would be better flavor for this 1lb 5d1 weapon type?
Anyway, that's just my personal interpretation.

This is not unreasonable as an interpretation. On the other side: there aren't many combinations of dice for weapons that are competitive, axes feature rather more in Tolkien than blunt weapons do, and dwarves gain from wielding axes whereas nobody gains from wielding blunt weapons.

Hand Axes don't really benefit very much from strength as 1 strength maxes out their potential, though Power helps them quite a bit. Other axes do, particularly Great Axes, which are generally too heavy to particularly benefit from sneak attacks. I'm not sure I buy that "bad for sneak attacks, more powerful with strength" necessitates a blunt weapon.

Derakon May 3, 2019 22:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quirk (Post 138211)
Help with the wording would be appreciated, certainly. It doesn't say "additional damage", so I'm not sure of your reading here, but it may be close enough to need clarification. Omitting "the enemy armour roll is reduced to zero" however doesn't specify that your three damage is unblocked.

In any case your damage roll is ignored, the enemy armour roll is ignored, and you deal three damage against an ignored enemy armour roll. Perhaps "Whenever an enemy's armour roll exceeds your archery damage roll, you deal the enemy three damage through their armour"?

How about "whenever the enemy's armor would fully block your archery damage roll, they take a flat 3 damage instead"?

Quirk May 4, 2019 00:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derakon (Post 138212)
How about "whenever the enemy's armor would fully block your archery damage roll, they take a flat 3 damage instead"?

I like this. It seems clear to me.

Destragon May 7, 2019 22:16

Thanks for replying. Yeah, sorry, I'm not very knowledgable on expanded Tolkien lore.
I really like the idea of harps or other instruments though and hope you'll eventually actually try to get them in. They fit perfectly into the game's magic theme and are not something you'd really see in many other games. The +will +song scepter could totally work as a harp. They'd of course have to be off-hand items for the same reason as scepters and maybe they could even get a little two handed bonus if you don't have a weapon equipped? That might encourage people to drop their weapon for the bonus, but maybe that's not actually that bad of a thing.

Some sort of rework of magic staves could also be very interesting, although complicated to think about. Was the flame scepter the only item that could have the flame enchantment? Would be a shame if that effect couldn't be salvaged.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quirk (Post 138211)
It doesn't say "additional damage", so I'm not sure of your reading here, but it may be close enough to need clarification.

"Dealing damage" to me sounds like the damage is getting applied, bypassing armor. Either way, Derakon's version seems to be unambiguous.

I still have a bunch more random suggestions, but I'll probably post about them in the new thread instead,

Quirk May 8, 2019 00:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Destragon (Post 138286)
Some sort of rework of magic staves could also be very interesting, although complicated to think about. Was the flame scepter the only item that could have the flame enchantment? Would be a shame if that effect couldn't be salvaged.

There is a flame-branded artefact sword, and a canny smith can make their own flaming weapon with Artifice.

I would like to rework staves at some point. Their dual existence as quarterstaffs and limited-charge magic wands vaguely annoys me. I appreciate the tactical value of consumables, but they sort of hint at wizard spells that in Tolkien had little to do with the staff and a lot to do with the wizard. It's difficult however to come up with consumables that both feel authentic to Tolkien and have valuable effects other than healing.

seraph May 8, 2019 05:37

how about pipe weed? not sure about any mechanical effect though.

Infinitum May 9, 2019 20:29

Words of Power! They could conceivably replace all other consumables with little to no mechanical changes, and the player memorizing and utilizing scattered words of power makes for a more compelling mental image than him packratting magical doodads strewn around the place.


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