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backwardsEric May 1, 2020 16:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by matronboy (Post 145092)
I'm trying to play through Terminal on my Mac using the version downloaded with Homebrew, but I'm crashing and getting a message after the title screen saying: "angband: Broken savefile - probably from a development version"

I've tried deleting and reinstalling and stuff like that but to no avail! Wondered if there was an easy fix for this? The download version works fine, so it's no bother, I just like having it all neat and tidy in my console.

Thanks in advance!

With homebrew's configuration for Angband, the savefile should be in .angband/Angband/save in your home directory (so something like /Users/somebody/.angband/Angband/save ). Checking what's there could help.

Nick May 2, 2020 02:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick (Post 145060)
I think the easiest fix for things that are consumed is to call *_object_for_use() with no message, and then print a specific message in use_aux() after knowledge is updated.

OK. After spending way too much of my life on this, I have determined that I was in fact correct here, and that my plan of reverting backwardsEric's fix and rewriting everything was very bad.

I now have a fix which I think works in all circumstances (really this time) which will get pushed soonish.

Nick May 2, 2020 09:40

New builds are up on the nightlies page and angband.live (source is here) with a raft of fixes and improvements:
  • Messages for learning objects by use are fixed
  • Cheat options are no longer maintained on at birth (#4363)
  • Nan and Gilim resist the relevant things
  • Mushrooms of Purging can appear in the general store
  • Player can no longer leave a web without clearing it by running (#4368)
  • No more crashes when looking and hitting 'g' or 'p' (#4371)
  • Objects with an unknown rune are never ignored (#4379)
  • Thrown damage is shown for shots and pebbles (#4367)
  • Patch to make mouse movement work in GCU port added (#4329 - thanks nicm)
  • Several things from backwardsEric:
    • Resistance grid for home added (#2953, #4035, and #4234)
    • 'U' can't activate items that are not worn (#4372)
    • Digging works if there are a stack of the best digger in the pack (#4338)
    • Brands work properly against vulnerabilities (#4198)
    • Updates to the new character sheet system

DavidMedley May 2, 2020 16:05

Wow! Lots of good stuff in there! Thanks Nick and Eric!

Sphara May 2, 2020 16:58

Good job! Thanks fellas!

DavidMedley May 4, 2020 02:08

Have Iron Shots intentionally gone from 1 AU to 3?

Nick May 4, 2020 03:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidMedley (Post 145172)
Have Iron Shots intentionally gone from 1 AU to 3?

I guess that's because they've acquired the THROWING flag.

spara May 4, 2020 15:30

1 Attachment(s)
Quaffed a potion of surprise and probably changed into a bat. At least that's the message log says. Cool. A couple of notes though.

1. Is there some place where I can see that I have the bat form? Other than the message log. Status bar would be the obvious place. I'm playing with the Gervais set and it would be quite cool, if the character tile actually changed into a bat. EDIT: Doh, it says "Bat" right there in the upper left corner.
2. The character now has Stea, Infra, Speed, Dark and S.Inv on @ column in the character sheet. The message says that the character has learned the runes, but doesn't @ column mean innate abilities that don't grant knowledge on runes? Unless something has changed of course, I haven't played nightly versions for a while.

EDIT: 3. @ is a warrior and 'm' does not allow @ to change back to human form. Then again I'm not sure what key should work with a warrior. Trying to read a scroll triggers a dialog that allows @ to change back to human form. Or maybe the bat-form should last for a limited time, but in that case reading a scroll should not trigger the change back dialog.

Attachment 1816

Ingwe Ingweron May 4, 2020 21:51

Possibly an unintended consequence of the recent fixes to (a) Messages for learning objects by use, and/or (b) Objects with an unknown rune are never ignored (#4379); ignored objects no longer disappear until @ walks over them. It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. If an ignored object usually disappeared automatically on sight, but then didn't, @ would get "leaked" information that the item was cursed. But, not having it disappear on sight also unravels a lot of the ease that ID by use was supposed to provide, bringing back the pain in the ass of having to walk over every object.

Nick May 4, 2020 22:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ingwe Ingweron (Post 145193)
Possibly an unintended consequence of the recent fixes to (a) Messages for learning objects by use, and/or (b) Objects with an unknown rune are never ignored (#4379); ignored objects no longer disappear until @ walks over them. It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. If an ignored object usually disappeared automatically on sight, but then didn't, @ would get "leaked" information that the item was cursed. But, not having it disappear on sight also unravels a lot of the ease that ID by use was supposed to provide, bringing back the pain in the ass of having to walk over every object.

Which ignored items are affected? I assume things like scrolls aren't, and weapons etc never did, so - rings and amulets?

Nick May 4, 2020 23:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by spara (Post 145183)
The character now has Stea, Infra, Speed, Dark and S.Inv on @ column in the character sheet. The message says that the character has learned the runes, but doesn't @ column mean innate abilities that don't grant knowledge on runes? Unless something has changed of course, I haven't played nightly versions for a while.

The idea is that once a character has understanding from experience of the property the rune gives, they will recognise it. It's not a perfect model, but doesn't seem too unreasonable?

Quote:

Originally Posted by spara (Post 145183)
@ is a warrior and 'm' does not allow @ to change back to human form. Then again I'm not sure what key should work with a warrior. Trying to read a scroll triggers a dialog that allows @ to change back to human form. Or maybe the bat-form should last for a limited time, but in that case reading a scroll should not trigger the change back dialog.

I thought 'm' would work - I'll check.

DavidMedley May 4, 2020 23:08

Pretty sure you can learn resist heat and resist cold from the potions as well, for example. I guess you shouldn't...? Hadn't thought of it before. Was too pleased to get the free runes!!

Ingwe Ingweron May 4, 2020 23:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick (Post 145197)
Which ignored items are affected? I assume things like scrolls aren't, and weapons etc never did, so - rings and amulets?

yeah, rings and amulets. every freaking ignored amulet of resist lightning is still on the floor, along with every other ignored jewelry.

fph May 4, 2020 23:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidMedley (Post 145201)
Pretty sure you can learn resist heat and resist cold from the potions as well, for example. I guess you shouldn't...? Hadn't thought of it before. Was too pleased to get the free runes!!

Nothing surprising here: if I prepared resist fire potions, I would probably put a big "resist fire" rune on the flasks to label them.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ed_Bottles.jpg

Nick May 4, 2020 23:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ingwe Ingweron (Post 145202)
yeah, rings and amulets. every freaking ignored amulet of resist lightning is still on the floor, along with every other ignored jewelry.

Hm, OK. Opinions on this?

Ingwe Ingweron May 5, 2020 00:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick (Post 145205)
Hm, OK. Opinions on this?

I think you know mine. I don't like looking at all the crap I've purposely ignored. It just unravels a lot of the purpose of rune id, not having to check every item with a walk over, or careful look around at each. Lot's of clutter.

DavidMedley May 5, 2020 01:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ingwe Ingweron (Post 145193)
If an ignored object usually disappeared automatically on sight, but then didn't, @ would get "leaked" information that the item was cursed.

Somehow @ can see from 20 spaces away that the amulet has the Resist Lightning rune, or whatever. So I guess he could also spot an unidentified rune?

archolewa May 5, 2020 02:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ingwe Ingweron (Post 145193)
@ would get "leaked" information that the item was cursed.

I don't see how this is meaningfully different from the status quo? As is, the game will name an object as soon as you've recognized all the non-cursed runes. So if you see an "Amulet of Resist Lightning {??}" you already know the item is cursed.

I'm also not sure how this affects gameplay. If I've ignored an item, that means that I will never equip it, uncursed or otherwise, so who cares if that information is being leaked?

If anything, now that I think about it, this change will make it kind of obnoxious to get trash to properly vanish, because I'll have to identify the curse to get it ignored.

Maybe if we have an "Ignore All X even with unidentified runes" option, sort of like how you can ignore all "Good Swords" and all "Non-Artifact Banded Mail" and what-not.

Then, for things that never have random properties that aren't curses (like Amulets of Resist Lightning) you can squash them away.

DavidMedley May 5, 2020 20:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidMedley (Post 145201)
Pretty sure you can learn resist heat and resist cold from the potions as well, for example. I guess you shouldn't...? Hadn't thought of it before. Was too pleased to get the free runes!!

I tried this and it didn't work. I guess I was mistaken.

luneya May 5, 2020 20:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidMedley (Post 145222)
Pretty sure you can learn resist heat and resist cold from the potions as well, for example. I guess you shouldn't...? Hadn't thought of it before. Was too pleased to get the free runes!!

I tried this and it didn't work. I guess I was mistaken.

It certainly was true back when rune id was introduced. Perhaps it's been changed since. This is really an issue where I have no opinion either way--and I expect most players would be similarly ambivalent. The behavior of the potions with respect to runes should be whatever is easiest from a code-maintenance standpoint.

spara May 5, 2020 21:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by luneya (Post 145223)
It certainly was true back when rune id was introduced. Perhaps it's been changed since. This is really an issue where I have no opinion either way--and I expect most players would be similarly ambivalent. The behavior of the potions with respect to runes should be whatever is easiest from a code-maintenance standpoint.

Whatever the system is, it should be consistent. Back in the day when rune-ID was introduced I remember quite a lot of discussion on this and in the end I "think" the consensus was that you can't learn runes from drinking potions, reading scrolls or innate abilities since those have no runes. They are different kind of magic or alchemy or whatever. That was quite some time ago though so I might be totally wrong here.

wobbly May 5, 2020 21:55

resist heat potions do teach the rune if you are wearing rfire at the time. Presumably because of the double resist. This however doesn't work with potions of rpoison for some reason.

DavidMedley May 6, 2020 21:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by wobbly (Post 145226)
resist heat potions do teach the rune if you are wearing rfire

What a weird trick! Got it to work for rCold just now.

spara May 6, 2020 22:48

Maybe @ could only learn runes when wearing a concrete rune. Fire and cold by drinking a potion and wearing the rune. See invisibility scroll when wearing the rune. Innate abilities would identify the associated runes on wearing them. After shapeshift to bat @ would learn the assosiated runes if wearing them. And so on. That would be logical and consistent.

Nick May 6, 2020 23:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by spara (Post 145251)
Maybe @ could only learn runes when wearing a concrete rune. Fire and cold by drinking a potion and wearing the rune. See invisibility scroll when wearing the rune. Innate abilities would identify the associated runes on wearing them. After shapeshift to bat @ would learn the assosiated runes if wearing them. And so on. That would be logical and consistent.

I've filed an issue for this; I'll look more closely at the logic, but this does appear sensible.

Ingwe Ingweron May 6, 2020 23:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick (Post 145253)
I've filed an issue for this; I'll look more closely at the logic, but this does appear sensible.

Ever backward in what I thought was one of the principal purposes of rune-id, to remove some of the tedium of the identification process. I'm quite certain that I've begun to despise the reversals in the jewelry identification game. Seeing DL 98 littered with Amulets of Resist Lightning and Rings of Protection, is ridiculous. They don't have to be cursed, they just don't disappear until @ physically walks over them. Tedious.

Nick May 6, 2020 23:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ingwe Ingweron (Post 145254)
Ever backward in what I thought was one of the principal purposes of rune-id, to remove some of the tedium of the identification process. I'm quite certain that I've begun to despise the reversals in the jewelry identification game. Seeing DL 98 littered with Amulets of Resist Lightning and Rings of Protection, is ridiculous. They don't have to be cursed, they just don't disappear until @ physically walks over them. Tedious.

Are you also complaining about the separate change that was suggested, and that you quoted my response to? I can't see anything obviously wrong with it, but I do miss things.

Rune ID was certainly intended to remove some of the tedium, but also make it a meaningful part of the game, and like any part of the game it has to be open to questions of whether it makes logical sense, whether there are jarring inconsistencies, etc.

As for the unknown rune change - in the 5 days since that change was made, the discussions here have led me to think that automatic ignoring of standard jewellery, but not of stuff that has extra curses, is probably the correct thing to do (although we may end up going back to the original situation).

Ingwe Ingweron May 7, 2020 00:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick (Post 145255)
Are you also complaining about the separate change that was suggested, and that you quoted my response to? I can't see anything obviously wrong with it, but I do miss things.

Possibly I misunderstood the proposed change, but, would it mean objects like scrolls and potions wouldn't be identified unless the relevant situation were present?

DavidMedley May 7, 2020 01:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ingwe Ingweron (Post 145256)
Possibly I misunderstood the proposed change, but, would it mean objects like scrolls and potions wouldn't be identified unless the relevant situation were present?

No, the idea is to sometimes give rune knowledge as well as auto-id scrolls and potions on use as usual.

Nick May 7, 2020 01:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ingwe Ingweron (Post 145256)
Possibly I misunderstood the proposed change, but, would it mean objects like scrolls and potions wouldn't be identified unless the relevant situation were present?

Ah, I see what you mean. I was taking this as no change to ID of potions and scrolls, but the runes for properties acquired by shapechange would only be learned if the character is wearing a relevant piece of equipment - the way it works for !rFire now.

spara May 7, 2020 07:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick (Post 145258)
Ah, I see what you mean. I was taking this as no change to ID of potions and scrolls, but the runes for properties acquired by shapechange would only be learned if the character is wearing a relevant piece of equipment - the way it works for !rFire now.

That's exactly what I meant. I'm only proposing a change to the rune id process to make it more logical.

MKula May 7, 2020 20:28

Hey, so I wanted to raise some "quality of life" issues to see what others think; these are just things that I found to be "annoying" or maybe unclear in the current state of things (again, "QoL" stuff):

Flags:
- What exactly does "Blessed" mean? There's no description of it anywhere in-game that I can find. Examining an ID'd Blessed weapon (or HA) just says "your weapon is blessed" and leaves it at that with no info on the benefits of it.

Necro:
- Since Necro's don't need light (but benefit highly from infra) I would love to see infra on the main view to know how much I have (maybe either beside light radius in the buff area at the bottom, or where HP/SP is on the left?).
- Spells that self-damage should have that damage value in the spell description if space allows (e.g. Shadow Shift description doesn't says it damages you 2d5)
- Nether Bolt does no damage to undead; I wish it said that somewhere (see Monster Memory below; I think that covers this issue).

Monster Memory:
- Currently a monster getting hit by a nether bolt doesn't appear to update the monster memory. This came up during my playthroughs because I noticed that undead are immune, but the monster descriptions don't include that info when they get hit.

Thoughts? A couple of them are admittedly questionable/controversial, but I figured I'd raise them anyway just in case.

EDIT: One more I recalled for mages:

Mage:
- I kind of wish Electric Arc functioned more like Noxious Fumes (@-centered AOE); a short range bolt hitting one target is a bit... disappointing

Sphara May 7, 2020 20:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by MKula (Post 145275)
Mage:
- I kind of wish Electric Arc functioned more like Noxious Fumes (@-centered AOE); a short range bolt hitting one target is a bit... disappointing

There is nothing wrong in player-centered ball spell in general, but Lightning Arc is the only guaranteed beam spell mage has early on. Fireball can pull the ball spell trick just nicely even though it requires targeting.

MKula May 7, 2020 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sphara (Post 145276)
Fireball can pull the ball spell trick just nicely even though it requires targeting.

Yeah, fair point about the beam. You do indeed get Fireball not long after and that can essentially serve the same purpose.

Nick May 8, 2020 03:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by MKula (Post 145275)
What exactly does "Blessed" mean? There's no description of it anywhere in-game that I can find. Examining an ID'd Blessed weapon (or HA) just says "your weapon is blessed" and leaves it at that with no info on the benefits of it.

Blessed now means priests and paladins get combat bonuses for using it. The description could be improved to show that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MKula (Post 145275)
Since Necro's don't need light (but benefit highly from infra) I would love to see infra on the main view to know how much I have (maybe either beside light radius in the buff area at the bottom, or where HP/SP is on the left?).

I don't think infravision is of sufficient general importance to be always shown. There are a bunch of things that are useful to know, but only so much screen real estate, and the line has to be drawn somewhere. Also infravision doesn't change very often, and can easily be seen from the 'C' screen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MKula (Post 145275)
- Spells that self-damage should have that damage value in the spell description if space allows (e.g. Shadow Shift description doesn't says it damages you 2d5)

Yep, that should be doable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MKula (Post 145275)
Currently a monster getting hit by a nether bolt doesn't appear to update the monster memory. This came up during my playthroughs because I noticed that undead are immune, but the monster descriptions don't include that info when they get hit.

That is probably doable too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MKula (Post 145275)
I kind of wish Electric Arc functioned more like Noxious Fumes (@-centered AOE); a short range bolt hitting one target is a bit... disappointing

Electric Arc can hit more than one monster if it's long enough; it doesn't stop at the first monster it hits (unlike bolts and balls).

I've filed an issue to do the info improvements.

MKula May 9, 2020 06:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick (Post 145278)
I don't think infravision is of sufficient general importance to be always shown. There are a bunch of things that are useful to know, but only so much screen real estate, and the line has to be drawn somewhere.

Yeah, agreed on this point. Infra's generally a minor thing.

I do feel like if you have no light, though, the game should tell you "your infra's kicking in". Maybe if your light is zero, the callout at the bottom changes from "Light (0)" to "Infra 30" (in the same purple colour as no light), or something? If you get a light again, it switches back to "Light (2)" in yellow or whatnot.

Or not. You're right that it's not a big deal. Just throwing that out there.

Nick May 9, 2020 08:36

New builds are now up on the nightlies page and angband.live with the following changes:
  • Improve the multiplier version of monster speed in lore
  • Revert the change stopping ignore of items with unknown runes, as it introduced too many side-effects
  • Tidied up some code for projections
  • Adjusted some tiles (#4274, #4406)
  • Make the player only learn runes from shapechange if they are also wearing a relevant item (#4404)
  • A few information fixes pointed out by MKula (#4408)
  • Some MSVC compile fixes by Kusunose
  • A raft of stuff from backwardsEric:
    • Several improvements to unit testing
    • Use of binary search in get_obj_num()
    • Fixes to equipment comparison
    • Improved textblocks, and then used the improvements for displaying two object descriptions together
    • Allowed repeat for magic that targets an item (enchant, identify, etc)
    • Group slays and brands that do the same damage together in weapon descriptions
    • Made floor stacking more sensible
    • Fix a compiler warning
    • Improvements to messages

Nick May 9, 2020 13:54

Note that there's currently a slight problem with repeating, in that you can keep on reading Identify Rune scrolls on an object after it has all its runes identified. Fixed in development, fix will be in the next build.

moosferatu May 9, 2020 14:24

Is it intended behavior for an inscribed consumable to lose its inscription when you've used all of the item and then get some more?

fph May 9, 2020 14:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by moosferatu (Post 145310)
Is it intended behavior for an inscribed consumable to lose its inscription when you've used all of the item and then get some more?

Inscriptions are tied to the individual object (e.g., that specific dagger (+5, +6)), not to the object type (e.g., *all* scrolls of recall in the world). However, you can set the game up to auto-inscribe every object of a certain kind: use the knowledge menu =, auto-inscription setup {, then { to inscribe a certain object type.

moosferatu May 9, 2020 14:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by fph (Post 145311)
Inscriptions are tied to the individual object (e.g., that specific dagger (+5, +6)), not to the object type (e.g., *all* scrolls of recall in the world). However, you can set the game up to auto-inscribe every object of a certain kind: use the knowledge menu =, auto-inscription setup {, then { to inscribe a certain object type.

Cool, thanks!

mrfy May 9, 2020 21:27

Did something change to the chance of ammo breaking on contact? When I look at Iron Shots (+0,+0) in the general store, the chance of breaking is 1%. This seems awfully low.

Ingwe Ingweron May 9, 2020 22:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrfy (Post 145329)
Did something change to the chance of ammo breaking on contact? When I look at Iron Shots (+0,+0) in the general store, the chance of breaking is 1%. This seems awfully low.

Doesn't seem low to me, for an iron shot. If it were an arrow or a bolt, that would be very, very low. But really, how easy is it to damage a rounded ball of hard metal so much that it isn't usable?

Nick May 10, 2020 00:35

So the reason is that they're throwing items now, which all have 1% breakage chance. I wondered about making an exception, but as Ingwe says, it does seem reasonable.

mrfy May 10, 2020 00:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ingwe Ingweron (Post 145333)
Doesn't seem low to me, for an iron shot. If it were an arrow or a bolt, that would be very, very low. But really, how easy is it to damage a rounded ball of hard metal so much that it isn't usable?

True. I'll just have to manage my inventory more so I'm not so overburdened with lots of Shots. I just expected them to break more often.

spara May 10, 2020 16:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick (Post 145338)
So the reason is that they're throwing items now, which all have 1% breakage chance. I wondered about making an exception, but as Ingwe says, it does seem reasonable.

Then again, iron shots should not break at all, but you rather don't find a certain percentage of them after use. I would keep the old breakage percentage, but would just change the message to "got lost" or something.

spara May 11, 2020 15:08

Does fear cumulate? Is it so that everytime @ gets "You are terrified!" more rounds are added to the counter?

I assumed that "You feel bolder now." means that the fear counter has gone to zero. However, in my current game, I ate a Mushroom of Terror, got scared by some monster on top of that and then got "You feel bolder now." message. The Terror was still on and @ was unable to harm a fly in melee. Is the Terror counter different from Fear counter? If so, then the fear messages should probably be tweaked a bit, when Terror is on.

Ingwe Ingweron May 11, 2020 16:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by spara (Post 145373)
Does fear cumulate? Is it so that everytime @ gets "You are terrified!" more rounds are added to the counter?

I assumed that "You feel bolder now." means that the fear counter has gone to zero. However, in my current game, I ate a Mushroom of Terror, got scared by some monster on top of that and then got "You feel bolder now." message. The Terror was still on and @ was unable to harm a fly in melee. Is the Terror counter different from Fear counter? If so, then the fear messages should probably be tweaked a bit, when Terror is on.

You can think of Terror as separate from Fear. Fear can be removed by !Boldness, !Heroism, or !Berserk Strength. Warriors of a certain level become immune to Fear. However, Terror is unresistable and incurable, except by time. (A similar condition exists when wearing =Escaping. Though that instantly disappears upon removing the ring.)

spara May 11, 2020 17:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ingwe Ingweron (Post 145374)
You can think of Terror as separate from Fear. Fear can be removed by !Boldness, !Heroism, or !Berserk Strength. Warriors of a certain level become immune to Fear. However, Terror is unresistable and incurable, except by time. (A similar condition exists when wearing =Escaping. Though that instantly disappears upon removing the ring.)

Thanks. That how I gathered it probably is. The messages concerning fear under Terror are a bit misleading, but not a big deal really.

mrfy May 13, 2020 04:38

I've been seeing a weird double keypress happen in the latest nightly. I've noticed it happening with the movement keys, I use an external usb keypad with my macbook pro, but I think it also happens with regular commands occasionally.

I've also had the game crash while fighting monsters (several times). I tried last night to get a save file but didn't succeed. I'll keep trying.

Ingwe Ingweron May 13, 2020 21:00

To my mind, the "new" targeting has a bit of a bug. When targeting a monster for, as an example, TO, or missiles. When the monster is successfully teleported away, or dies from the missiles, the targeting reticle remains on the physical location of the now absent monster. Previous behavior was that the no longer useful reticle would vanish rather than requiring extra keystrokes to undo the now useless targeting.

Ingwe Ingweron May 13, 2020 21:17

Another odd bug. @ has complete monster memory, but when faced with Harowan, "Nothing is known about his attack".

Nick May 13, 2020 22:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ingwe Ingweron (Post 145436)
To my mind, the "new" targeting has a bit of a bug. When targeting a monster for, as an example, TO, or missiles. When the monster is successfully teleported away, or dies from the missiles, the targeting reticle remains on the physical location of the now absent monster. Previous behavior was that the no longer useful reticle would vanish rather than requiring extra keystrokes to undo the now useless targeting.

I feel like that might have been around for a while. Will check.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ingwe Ingweron (Post 145437)
Another odd bug. @ has complete monster memory, but when faced with Harowan, "Nothing is known about his attack".

Complete from copying over monster.txt?

Ingwe Ingweron May 14, 2020 06:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick (Post 145440)
Complete from copying over monster.txt?

Yes, lore.txt from monster.txt copy. Truly odd. Same is true for Saruman, "Nothing is known about his attack", while for Quaker, "You know everything about this monster." I have no idea why some monsters are known and others are not, even with a complete monster.txt copy. :confused:

Nick May 14, 2020 12:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ingwe Ingweron (Post 145447)
Yes, lore.txt from monster.txt copy. Truly odd. Same is true for Saruman, "Nothing is known about his attack", while for Quaker, "You know everything about this monster." I have no idea why some monsters are known and others are not, even with a complete monster.txt copy. :confused:

OK, found and fixed. In fact, you wouldn't get any memory for anything deeper than great crystal drakes :rolleyes:

Nick May 14, 2020 12:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ingwe Ingweron (Post 145436)
To my mind, the "new" targeting has a bit of a bug. When targeting a monster for, as an example, TO, or missiles. When the monster is successfully teleported away, or dies from the missiles, the targeting reticle remains on the physical location of the now absent monster. Previous behavior was that the no longer useful reticle would vanish rather than requiring extra keystrokes to undo the now useless targeting.

OK, I can confirm this happens with TO, but shooting a monster to death with arrows seems to result in the target being released correctly.

PowerWyrm May 14, 2020 12:51

I just generated a +16 iron shot of flame and the best Buckland sling you can get. Throwing the shot does almost as much damage as firing the sling vs non fire resistant monster at level 50. With a regular sling, the shot does like 3x less damage than a simple throw. This is stupid...

Nick May 14, 2020 13:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by PowerWyrm (Post 145453)
I just generated a +16 iron shot of flame and the best Buckland sling you can get. Throwing the shot does almost as much damage as firing the sling vs non fire resistant monster at level 50. With a regular sling, the shot does like 3x less damage than a simple throw. This is stupid...

Agreed. It seems to make sense for shots to be throwable effectively, but it needs more thought.

moosferatu May 14, 2020 13:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by spara (Post 145353)
Then again, iron shots should not break at all, but you rather don't find a certain percentage of them after use. I would keep the old breakage percentage, but would just change the message to "got lost" or something.

What was the old percentage?

Personally, I like it how it is now. My previous and most recent characters were hobbit rangers who struggled to find a bow that was better than a sling. As a result, I had to lug around shot, but, with low strength, couldn't afford to carry more than 20 at a time. It would be incredibly annoying if the shot "got lost" as frequently as arrows. Slings wouldn't be worth the trouble even if they did decent damage.

spara May 14, 2020 14:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by moosferatu (Post 145455)
What was the old percentage?

Personally, I like it how it is now. My previous and most recent characters were hobbit rangers who struggled to find a bow that was better than a sling. As a result, I had to lug around shot, but, with low strength, couldn't afford to carry more than 20 at a time. It would be incredibly annoying if the shot "got lost" as frequently as arrows. Slings wouldn't be worth the trouble even if they did decent damage.

I think it was 25% and arrows like 35%. 25%->1% is quite a nerf.

Chud May 15, 2020 07:46

Do the latest nightlies include the latest changes to the evolving Blackguard? Or is that a separate branch?

Nick May 15, 2020 08:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chud (Post 145483)
Do the latest nightlies include the latest changes to the evolving Blackguard? Or is that a separate branch?

Yep, they're all in the nightlies. There should be another small update over the weekend, too - David's original plan was for their detection spell to be for monsters which can be frightened, and I've implemented that in my dev version.

moosferatu May 15, 2020 14:20

1 Attachment(s)
When you hit 'r' on a stack of items, is it supposed to list all of the items in the stack? I did this last night on a stack of two items (wand and silver). It listed the wand and had a line for the sliver, but the text was empty. I had just drank a !enlightenment, so I assume @ should have known it was silver.

DavidMedley May 15, 2020 14:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick (Post 145484)
Yep, they're all in the nightlies. There should be another small update over the weekend, too - David's original plan was for their detection spell to be for monsters which can be frightened, and I've implemented that in my dev version.

Hmm that should be interesting. I had semi-repented that choice because I started to think it would miss too many crucial enemies. But it'll make the BG more distinct...!

Nick May 15, 2020 15:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by moosferatu (Post 145496)
When you hit 'r' on a stack of items, is it supposed to list all of the items in the stack? I did this last night on a stack of two items (wand and silver). It listed the wand and had a line for the sliver, but the text was empty. I had just drank a !enlightenment, so I assume @ should have known it was silver.

Nice find! This bug has been in existence for a long time, certainly since before my time as maintainer. The problem is actually that money is not given a colour to be printed in in object lists (because it never appears, I guess - right?), so it is printed in black on a black background.

Fixed in development :)

moosferatu May 15, 2020 15:35

Great!

Tangentially related, it is annoying when a monster obscures items that you've detected. For example, detect treasure then detect life and, if a monster is in the same location as an item, only the monster's symbol is displayed. It would be wonderful if there was a way to toggle between giving display preference to monsters or items, or maybe there already is? If there isn't, I'm guessing this is easier said than done.

DavidMedley May 15, 2020 15:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidMedley (Post 145497)
Hmm that should be interesting. I had semi-repented that choice because I started to think it would miss too many crucial enemies. But it'll make the BG more distinct...!

I'll post some more about this in the BG thread
http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthread.php?p=145479

DavidMedley May 15, 2020 16:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidMedley (Post 145497)
Hmm that should be interesting. I had semi-repented that choice because I started to think it would miss too many crucial enemies. But it'll make the BG more distinct...!

After looking at this change closely, I think it'll be really good actually.

Grotug May 16, 2020 23:11

For Forced Descent games would it be a good idea to convert up staircases to down staircases? As an almost exclusively forced descent player this would be sooo nice.

Nick May 17, 2020 07:07

New builds are now up on the nightlies page and angband.live with the following changes:
  • Fix for bug where repeated reading of scrolls of Identify Rune to no effect was possible
  • Blackguards' detect living monsters change to detect monsters which can be scared
  • Make copying monster.txt to lore.txt work again
  • Drop grid target after a monster gets teleported (or is otherwise out of LoS)
  • Adjust throwing damage so that shots/pebbles are less OP
  • Adjust break percentage back up for shots/pebbles
  • Adjust critical hit rate for O-combat
  • Allow gold objects to appear in floor lists
  • Make more projection effects wake monsters, and add a line in projection.txt governing (most of) this
  • Assert stairs are placed when asked for (#4243)
  • Fix some address errors (thanks Kusunose)
  • Fix crash after incorrect cleanup from killing a mimic (thanks backwardsEric)

DavidMedley May 18, 2020 01:25

I don't expect this suggestion to be popular, but I think selling should be on by default. I've gotten a few new players into the game in the last several months and they all ask me about why they can't sell items for more than $0. I don't mind that experienced players think no_sell is the better way to play, but I really don't think it should be the default for people who don't even know how to change the birth options.

Might as well make "show effective speed as a multiplier" default for the same reason.

Nick May 18, 2020 04:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidMedley (Post 145577)
I don't expect this suggestion to be popular, but I think selling should be on by default. I've gotten a few new players into the game in the last several months and they all ask me about why they can't sell items for more than $0. I don't mind that experienced players think no_sell is the better way to play, but I really don't think it should be the default for people who don't even know how to change the birth options.

And once you tell them, then they know :)

Many long-time players (me included) were sceptical about no-selling before it was made the default, and it has been pretty much universally acknowledged that it is a big improvement to gameplay. I think setting it as not the default is sending the wrong signals (especially to new players) as to what is important in the game. There was a period where Angband was derided as the "game of shopping", where a large part of the game consisted of wandering the dungeon slowed to -2 or -3 so you could lug around the latest collection of useless ego weapons to sell in the shops. I'd rather not go back to that.

DavidMedley May 18, 2020 04:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick (Post 145579)
Many long-time players (me included) were sceptical about no-selling before it was made the default.

I know that history, and I'm glad some or most players are enjoying the game more on no-sell. But it's very counter-intuitive. New players are confused by it. Conceding that no-sell is much better, a moderately experienced player can choose it when he discovers birth options.

But another way to go about it would be to have explanatory text somewhere. I can't tell every new player about the rules of no-sell!

Nick May 18, 2020 04:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidMedley (Post 145580)
I know that history, and I'm glad some or most players are enjoying the game more on no-sell. But it's very counter-intuitive. New players are confused by it. Conceding that no-sell is much better, a moderately experienced player can choose it when he discovers birth options.

The problem is, though, that the beginning player has already learned to value getting stuff and selling it, and it's quite addictive - "1500AU for a weapon I would never use - that's great! Next time I'll get 5!". And it gets repeatedly reinforced, so that the player will make inventory decisions which are ultimately bad (being overburdened, leaving too few slots for useful items) because of the drive to bring back more stuff to sell.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidMedley (Post 145580)
But another way to go about it would be to have explanatory text somewhere. I can't tell every new player about the rules of no-sell!

That's fair - where do you think is the best place to put such an explanation? Players' tendency to read useful explanations varies...

EpicMan May 18, 2020 05:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick (Post 145582)
That's fair - where do you think is the best place to put such an explanation? Players' tendency to read useful explanations varies...

Maybe mention it the first time a player visits a shop, or the first time they sell an item.

DavidMedley May 18, 2020 06:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by EpicMan (Post 145583)
Maybe mention it the first time a player visits a shop, or the first time they sell an item.

First time they try to sell an item is a very good idea. Like when they press d and before or simultaneous to seeing they're gonna get 0AU for their loot. Much better than their first few turns in the town when there's a lot to take in.

Useful on the first play, but is there a way to make it not annoying on the fifty-first play?

mrfy May 18, 2020 06:48

And point out the benefits of no-selling. Extra $$ on drops and treasure in walls.

spara May 18, 2020 08:55

In my opinion as a game mechanic no-selling is better than selling. Makes the game much more streamlined. However it's quite illogical in a game world where there are shops around and more so in a genre where looting and selling is considered to be a cornerstone of some sort. Is there a reason for balancing the no-selling option by increasing the amount of money found in the dungeon instead of just allowing players to quick sell loot in the dungeon?

PowerWyrm May 18, 2020 09:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick (Post 145579)
And once you tell them, then they know :)

Many long-time players (me included) were sceptical about no-selling before it was made the default, and it has been pretty much universally acknowledged that it is a big improvement to gameplay. I think setting it as not the default is sending the wrong signals (especially to new players) as to what is important in the game. There was a period where Angband was derided as the "game of shopping", where a large part of the game consisted of wandering the dungeon slowed to -2 or -3 so you could lug around the latest collection of useless ego weapons to sell in the shops. I'd rather not go back to that.

We were having a discussion for PWMAngband about no-selling and the amount of cash you get from enhanced coin piles. The result was that a linear distribution was not working at all, as you get way too much money in the beginning by simply wandering the first few levels, getting like 2-3k in seconds, recalling and simply buying everything you need for half the game (almost), and then getting way too few in the endgame to get a couple exceptional items that would show up in the Black Market. Maybe change the formula (plain factor 5) to something more gradual?

Nick May 18, 2020 09:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by PowerWyrm (Post 145589)
We were having a discussion for PWMAngband about no-selling and the amount of cash you get from enhanced coin piles. The result was that a linear distribution was not working at all, as you get way too much money in the beginning by simply wandering the first few levels, getting like 2-3k in seconds, recalling and simply buying everything you need for half the game (almost), and then getting way too few in the endgame to get a couple exceptional items that would show up in the Black Market. Maybe change the formula (plain factor 5) to something more gradual?

Maybe make the multiplier 2 or 3 + (player level / 5)?

Mondkalb May 18, 2020 09:31

I switched back to selling.
I don't carry around useless items just to sell them, only if I am planning to recall soon, I start to collect some stuff to sell.
Plus, since the game encourages diving, I don't recall until I have reached some depth and shall get decent money for my loot (and get additional runes identified, which is of use also in no-selling mode).
One very good reason for me to do so, is that I can sell dungeon books that are of no use for the current @ for lots of gold. With no-selling on, dungeon books may generate excellent level feelings and dissappointed players ;).

tangar May 18, 2020 10:38

No-selling simplify item's managment - one of the most annoying (to me) aspect of the game. Actually even with no-selling there are more then enough item managment - where you have to juggle items to combine certain set of items to cover resistances properly.. I hate this aspect of the game, sorry :( I think a lot of players likes it, but personally I like getting to the dungeon and fight there, not sitting upon piles of items.. So no-selling is the only way which I play.. Angband no-selling it's the most awesome mechanic in all-over roguelike games around. It's saves time which otherwise you have to spend on items managment - so you could spend it on something really interesting - actually playing the game by surviving in the dungeon.

Another point is.. CHArisma stat. Without it what the point to trade stuff to NPC ;) (ok, it's my old grudge about missing CHA...) Btw.. maybe there could be a parameter which could just influence on gold amount you find in the dungeon via no-selling... So instead of CHA there will be LUCK parameter then? Which is not possible to increase with the help of STAT potions (only at character creation). It will greatly help to rebalance different races.

Anyway I miss times in Moria where you were able to bargain with NPCs in shops :D It was great to get a good deal after some time of persuading NPC to buy stuff for bigger price.. But it's just a nostalgia. I won't switch back to selling to NPC ever I suppose :) But as they say: never say never...

DavidMedley May 18, 2020 14:42

You hate selling and love CHA?

tangar May 18, 2020 14:50

Yep :) I love CHArisma stat, it's very traditional. Came out from DnD (and it still there). CHArisma is great help for race rabalancing. Even with no-selling it could help in gamedesign: playing physically outstanding half-troll you should pay consequences for your ugly face when you try to _buy_ stuff from the shops.

Actually there are a lot of stuff which we could take from DnD, especially in terms of formulas and game balance.. Get back to the roots is useful sometimes, to see the picture with a fresh eye ;)

DavidMedley May 18, 2020 21:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick (Post 145579)
a large part of the game consisted of wandering the dungeon slowed to -2 or -3 so you could lug around the latest collection of useless ego weapons to sell in the shops

Was there an unlimited supply of cheap recall back then? I don't understand why players did this. I don't see them doing it now.

NightLizard May 18, 2020 22:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidMedley (Post 145577)
I've gotten a few new players into the game in the last several months and they all ask me about why they can't sell items for more than $0.

I don't understand why they expect to be able to sell, or why it would be confusing? Plenty of roguelikes have no selling, and there's nothing indicating that you can sell an item when you play with "no selling". It says "press d to give the item away for identification".

DavidMedley May 18, 2020 22:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by NightLizard (Post 145610)
I don't understand why they expect to be able to sell

Because of life and shops buy and sell and why wouldn't they give you a little money for a priceless artifact so you don't just drop it on the ground instead?
Quote:

Plenty of roguelikes have no selling
Which ones have a town and no selling?

Sideways May 18, 2020 23:19

"Why do I get $0 for selling items?" is one of the most frequently asked questions at angband.live, up there with "how do I set up subwindows?", "which variants should I try?" and "[rodent/Gwarl/EpicMan], can you make corpses and skeletons weigh so much that no one except Igors can actually lug them home for the reward?"; though none of those are in the same league as the all-time champion "why do I move a zillion squares every time I press an arrow?"...

Nick May 19, 2020 00:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidMedley (Post 145584)
First time they try to sell an item is a very good idea. Like when they press d and before or simultaneous to seeing they're gonna get 0AU for their loot. Much better than their first few turns in the town when there's a lot to take in.

Useful on the first play, but is there a way to make it not annoying on the fifty-first play?

I'm actually now thinking no change. There are already multiple prompts for "give" rather than "sell", and it's explained further in the shop help. Plus the game documentation. Failing that, the player gives their first item and doesn't get anything back - that's a pretty clear message.

There are a hundred not-completely-obvious game mechanics, and focusing on one just takes attention away from the others. I feel like the balance between no information and annoying repeated information is OK for no-selling.

wobbly May 19, 2020 07:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidMedley (Post 145609)
Was there an unlimited supply of cheap recall back then? I don't understand why players did this. I don't see them doing it now.

The opposite. You didn't start with ?recall & it's around 300au (chr is still a stat, shopkeepers are biggots). ?phase & !clw are more expensive, early drops are stuff like +0 cloaks, filthy rags & cursed items. No guaranteed items in the shops, there might not be a recall scroll or arrows sometimes. Anyway instead of buying a stack of phase and clw it would take a few trips to the low levels (using the stairs) just to buy the starting kit people use now and a bunch of sunk time buy/selling basic consumables. A bit more sunk time before you get a constant source of id.

DavidMedley May 19, 2020 20:08

Game just keeps getting better all the time. Among a hundred things, the latest changes to the monster recall really clarify monster speed and melee damage. Keep up the good work Nick and everyone else!

Ingwe Ingweron May 20, 2020 19:18

Is there any reason for id by use of mushrooms to go wonky recently? @ just ate a "waxy mushroom", hallucinated wildly, felt drugged, resistant to fire, resistant to cold, and very good, and now sees some Mushrooms of Emergency in a stack on the floor. BUT, when inspecting the mushrooms in question, the only data given other than its name is, "It can be eaten." :confused:

Cuboideb May 20, 2020 19:39

I created a Necro and tried Miasma for the first time at clvl 10. My character got confused, hallucinated and the clvl dropped to 1. I think its a bit too much. At that stage the only attack spell is nether bolt, until disenchant at clvl 16.

Also, the anti-teleport curse is silent. It should display a message when reading ?phase.

Nick May 20, 2020 22:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ingwe Ingweron (Post 145657)
Is there any reason for id by use of mushrooms to go wonky recently? @ just ate a "waxy mushroom", hallucinated wildly, felt drugged, resistant to fire, resistant to cold, and very good, and now sees some Mushrooms of Emergency in a stack on the floor. BUT, when inspecting the mushrooms in question, the only data given other than its name is, "It can be eaten." :confused:

Hm, I'll have a look.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuboideb (Post 145660)
I created a Necro and tried Miasma for the first time at clvl 10. My character got confused, hallucinated and the clvl dropped to 1. I think its a bit too much. At that stage the only attack spell is nether bolt, until disenchant at clvl 16.

Typically the character doesn't encounter chaos that early - that does seem a lot. It is a pretty effective killer, though, and I do like the idea compared to poison. Thoughts?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuboideb (Post 145660)
Also, the anti-teleport curse is silent. It should display a message when reading ?phase.

Yes, it should, and I'm surprised it didn't. Will check.

Cuboideb May 21, 2020 00:05

The confusion and hallucination can be a trade-off. The experience drain is the biggest problem I think. It causes a massive drop in HP and SP.

I really like chaos for a necro, it's more thematic than inertia or force. Can we have some kind of soft-chaos ?

Nick May 21, 2020 00:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuboideb (Post 145671)
The confusion and hallucination can be a trade-off. The experience drain is the biggest problem I think. It causes a massive drop in HP and SP.

I really like chaos for a necro, it's more thematic than inertia or force. Can we have some kind of soft-chaos ?

So life-drain mostly works by having a fixed percentage (2%) drain, plus a bit more. For nether, that bit more is 200 XP; for chaos, it's currently 5000.

My plan is to do away with the bit more for chaos, but raise the drain percentage to 3%.

Nick May 21, 2020 08:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuboideb (Post 145660)
Also, the anti-teleport curse is silent. It should display a message when reading ?phase.

Tested, and all seems to be working. If unaware of the curse (or the no-teleport rune) the player gets the messages "You have learned the rune of teleportation ban. Your <item> prevents you teleporting. You have learned the rune of anti-teleportation curse. Teleportation forbidden!"; if aware, it's just "Teleportation forbidden!".

Sphara May 21, 2020 10:32

What´s with the Lantern of Shadows again? I thought it was custom made for necromancers.
I found one very early as a Dunadan Necromancer and it gave <+1> stealth and a big light radius, screwing my spells.

Played on angband.live (nightly).

fph May 21, 2020 11:50

Unfortunately lanterns still emit light. Would it make sense to have a command to empty lanterns (the opposite of F)? As a necromancer, I can see myself using certain empty ego lanterns just for the resistances and/or stealth bonuses, but I'd have to rest to drain them out.

Sphara May 21, 2020 12:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by fph (Post 145683)
Unfortunately lanterns still emit light. Would it make sense to have a command to empty lanterns (the opposite of F)? As a necromancer, I can see myself using certain empty ego lanterns just for the resistances and/or stealth bonuses, but I'd have to rest to drain them out.

Thanks fph!
I completely forgot I needed to empty it. Too bad I committed a suicide on that character who found the Lantern :D


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