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-   -   4.2 design discussion (http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthread.php?t=9306)

Nick March 30, 2019 21:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gwarl (Post 137215)
Personally I'd rather see a reduction in the to_h and to_d and keep the dd, because dice and brands are a more interesting mechanic than to_d, where in the latter case the weapon damage kind of pales into insignificance and the number of attacksto leverage the to_d is king. Which is IMO a problem in V combat generally. More emphasis on dd and ds makes more more varied combat and potentially more interesting weapon choices as it allows brands to shine and decreases emphasis on blows/round.

I tend to think similarly, but had two reasons for going the other way:
  1. I thought the brand damage rather and the overall damage were both problems and
  2. I had just read the discussion prior when they were buffed, and there was a general move to give artifacts higher pusses because they can easily just get enchanted up anyway.

After a second think, I think I was probably wrong on the first count, and that the game has changed sufficiently that the second one is less of an issue. So I might go with 2d4 (+6,+9) or similar.

You've also made me think about the whole question of plusses vs. dice. Here is a suggestion:
  • Rebalance weapons to put more in dice and less in + to-hit and to-dam
  • Rework the enchant mechanic a bit so that plusses don't get as high, probably by just cutting off the chance of enchantment at +12 or even +10 - which also reduces the silly "enchant, rest for mana, repeat" game for priests and paladins.

This is a decent-sized change - what do people think?

Pete Mack March 30, 2019 21:47

In 3.0, it was +4,+6, and with difficulty you might enchant it to +9,+9. +12 was right out. In the new era of rare enchantment scrolls, +7,+7 is a more likely max, before something better shows up

Derakon March 31, 2019 00:43

Reworking enchantments so that huge pluses (>15? Maybe >20?) are uncommon or nonexistent seems worthy of consideration. I don't have strong opinions on it at the moment, though.

IMO the permanent enchantment spells need to go. They encourage boring play and make it harder to balance the game. In the past everyone had that problem, because enchantment scrolls were sold in stores; now it's just priests. I'm sure we can find a worthwhile spell to replace them with. Maybe a super-heroism spell? *shrug*

As for the 'thancs, and artifacts in general, I think it's more special to find an artifact that does something that ordinary weapons can't do than it is to find an artifact that's just better than an ordinary weapon. In that lens, the big problem the thancs had was that they were literally just branded daggers that activated for an elemental bolt. The activation isn't bad, but it's not enough to distinguish them.

A thanc dagger that was 3d4 (+0,+0), say, is effectively a super-lightweight branded bastard sword, which is an effect that is completely unavailable otherwise. Its average damage would be 22.5/blow vs. nonresistant enemies, which is most of them in the early game where the thancs are at all relevant.

You could also have the thancs activate for an elemental bolt plus some other effect, like Shield (+50 AC), temporary ESP, Confuse Monster, etc. The goal isn't necessarily to make their power output such that they remain useful for a long time, so much as it is to make them memorable so they stand out compared to the ego items you'd otherwise be using at this stage in the game.

takkaria March 31, 2019 01:01

An idea I always liked around damage was to make the max normal enchantment of weapons a function of their dice. So daggers would be unlikely to be found at more than +4 to-d (and enchantment would be harder too), whereas broad swords could get to +10. I think UnAngband might have something like this.

Mondkalb March 31, 2019 08:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by takkaria (Post 137237)
An idea I always liked around damage was to make the max normal enchantment of weapons a function of their dice. So daggers would be unlikely to be found at more than +4 to-d (and enchantment would be harder too), whereas broad swords could get to +10. I think UnAngband might have something like this.

That sounds interesting. It would also make it unlikely to find supposedly "good" weapons, like a "whip of slay giants +11/+22", which are never really useful, except in the very early game.

Gwarl March 31, 2019 13:21

I have toyed with the idea on innate accuracy penalties and bonuses and innate damage bonuses (i.e. on {average} weapons) that would then be cumulative to the bonuses on {good} and other weapons.

e.g. daggers and quarterstaves get an accuracy bonus, battleaxes get an accuracy penalty but a damage bonus

MWGE April 2, 2019 03:17

Some thoughts on Necromancers

They seem (at least in my hands having died with 5 at around CL 25ish) to lack "another" damage spell that's useful.

The nether type bolt is good but then runs out of steam and the noxious vapours and vampire strike options are both relatively poor. Many (?) creatures seem shielded against the latter and the former poisons the caster too.

Equally the Vampire strike brings one into contact with the baddies...

Utility spells seem rather lacking too.

I like the Tap spell. I think that's good.

I do quite like the idea of the class and hence playing them a lot but they are hard to survive with given the lack of spells.

Oh...and Blood Falcons...WOAHH...

wobbly April 2, 2019 09:20

They get disenchant, I think it's in the 1st dungeon book? I idly feel that necromancers should get something special from Morgul weapons but I have no specific idea what.

MWGE April 2, 2019 10:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by wobbly (Post 137325)
They get disenchant, I think it's in the 1st dungeon book? I idly feel that necromancers should get something special from Morgul weapons but I have no specific idea what.

True but again it doesn't seem much use and the cost it quite high?

Might be me but their spells overall seemed rather weak.

Agreed re Morgul weapons, that would be interesting but they are not melee types in general. Nice bit of flavor though I agree.

The darkness part i quite like but it does mean one is often entering rooms with less information that available to other characters. Detection/ESP (never got that with one yet) would ameliorate the issue true but there doesn't seem a trade off.

Don't get me wrong, i very much like the idea, they just feel a little incomplete at the moment.


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