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-   -   Formula Suggestions for Race/Class Stats (http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthread.php?t=7445)

TricksterWolf August 24, 2015 16:27

Formula Suggestions for Race/Class Stats
 
I'd like to have a general rule-of-thumb for how much added exp should be required for a race or class (race is higher importance because there's so much crap to account for).

I know this is a balancing act and I'm not looking for a perfect predictor. I just want a very rough idea of what the features are worth.

Like, +1 STR = +3% exp, or KNOW_ZAPPER = +1%, or -8 Device = -3%, etc.

Any advice or ideas would be really, really appreciated here. Super-duper-rough is fine!

Derakon August 24, 2015 17:18

0% across the board (or 50%, etc.). Experience penalties are a dumb way to "balance" races/classes, since they just mean that you have to spend more time grinding. They'd make more sense in a game where there was a limited amount of experience, or in a game where you were controlling multiple characters who were all getting roughly the same amount of experience (and thus would end up at different levels with respect to each other). In a single-player game with no limits on experience gain aside from tolerance for tedium, they don't make sense.

If some races/classes are more powerful than others, then so be it. Nobody said they have to be competitively balanced.

TricksterWolf August 24, 2015 18:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derakon (Post 103862)
0% across the board (or 50%, etc.). Experience penalties are a dumb way to "balance" races/classes, since they just mean that you have to spend more time grinding. They'd make more sense in a game where there was a limited amount of experience, or in a game where you were controlling multiple characters who were all getting roughly the same amount of experience (and thus would end up at different levels with respect to each other). In a single-player game with no limits on experience gain aside from tolerance for tedium, they don't make sense.

If some races/classes are more powerful than others, then so be it. Nobody said they have to be competitively balanced.

I disagree.

One appeal to trying to play a lesser race is that you'll advance more quickly to level 50, which makes up for the crappy stats in playability. Without a penalty (or bonus), it would be much more irritating to play classes with poor stats since the beginning of the game would be significantly harder in many respects (before you can start playing the inventory-swap games).

At the very least, crappier characters should be easier to get to 50. I mean, if you don't like grinding, then why not just change the game to start out with every character at level 50 and whatever equipment you like?

Estie August 25, 2015 22:38

I dont remember who said this: "I like grind, but it has to be good grind."

The premise of the game is that you somehow enjoy the path towards facing Morgoth. Thats not to say that there shouldnt be challenges, unlucky mishaps or unpleasant periods along the way, but as a whole, the path must be enjoyable for people to voluntarily play the game.
If this wasnt the case and people only played for the achievement of winning, noone would continue to play after the first win.

So I am with Derakon here, it doesnt make sense to "punish" by making the road longer.

It would make sense for a competitive environment, when turncount is of the essence. However, the common competition mode here doesnt allow you to pick your class/race.

People who try to top the ladder with lowest turncounts pick the best bonus/xp-malus ratio anyway, whether the races/classes are semi-balanced or not.

Edit: that being said, here goes:

1 = +1 str = +1 mainstat = +1 stealth = +1 hd = 20 save = 20 device = any infravision = 20 hit = 20 shoot. Calculated for High-Elf, we get about 10 = 200% XP.

TJS September 7, 2015 17:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by TricksterWolf (Post 103864)
I disagree.

One appeal to trying to play a lesser race is that you'll advance more quickly to level 50, which makes up for the crappy stats in playability. Without a penalty (or bonus), it would be much more irritating to play classes with poor stats since the beginning of the game would be significantly harder in many respects (before you can start playing the inventory-swap games).

At the very least, crappier characters should be easier to get to 50. I mean, if you don't like grinding, then why not just change the game to start out with every character at level 50 and whatever equipment you like?

Completely agree, I like playing human warriors for exactly that reason. Removing this advantage will make them completely pointless to play.

Another way of looking at it is high-elf mages level up at the normal rate whereas others get a discount on experience. Also high-elves are as good at lower levels than other races anyway. Removing their experience penalty will make them even easier than they are currently.

Experience grinding isn't a problem anyway, it's more grinding for consumables and gear that takes up most of the end game.

If there's still a general consensus that gaining levels takes too long then reduce the amount needed across the board, but keep the differences between races and classes.

mushroom patch September 9, 2015 07:45

Just wanted to say that the xp modifiers for different races are essentially meaningless, hence do not provide any real balance against superior stats and/or intrinsics. The way xp works in angband, being underleveled results in higher xp. Meanwhile, having better stats allows you to punch way above your weight, reckoned in terms of xp level.

Human warriors are already pointless to play, if you're thinking in terms of what's the best way to win, what's the fastest way to win, etc. Your character will not actually develop faster with bad stats, no instrinsics, and mediocre stealth, magic device, etc. It turns out that things that make you comparatively strong early in the game continue to make you comparatively strong throughout the game.

TJS September 9, 2015 12:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by mushroom patch (Post 104271)
Just wanted to say that the xp modifiers for different races are essentially meaningless, hence do not provide any real balance against superior stats and/or intrinsics. The way xp works in angband, being underleveled results in higher xp. Meanwhile, having better stats allows you to punch way above your weight, reckoned in terms of xp level.

Human warriors are already pointless to play, if you're thinking in terms of what's the best way to win, what's the fastest way to win, etc. Your character will not actually develop faster with bad stats, no instrinsics, and mediocre stealth, magic device, etc. It turns out that things that make you comparatively strong early in the game continue to make you comparatively strong throughout the game.

Human warriors are fun to play because they level up quickly whilst still being quite difficult to play. Remove the main reason for playing them and they become pointless and unfun.

I don't agree xp modifiers are meaningless as that would imply that xp itself is meaningless which it obviously is not. An early !exp make the early game much easier for example.

mixer September 9, 2015 12:52

Should experience be capped.
 
To make the level gain % very relevant it would be better to have a experience cap. So a human warrior could say get to level 55 (ie beyond what they can current get) and a high elf mage could say only get to level 45? Personally I normally play Dwarf Priest so would expect to be restricted to about level 47-8.

mushroom patch September 10, 2015 08:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by TJS (Post 104273)
Human warriors are fun to play because they level up quickly whilst still being quite difficult to play. Remove the main reason for playing them and they become pointless and unfun.

I don't agree xp modifiers are meaningless as that would imply that xp itself is meaningless which it obviously is not. An early !exp make the early game much easier for example.

What I'm saying is that a level 15 High-elf rogue plays like a level 20 human warrior (except it has spells). The level 15 High-elf rogue can go toe-to-toe with the same monsters, dive deeper, and get more experience from kills because of the way xp is computed. I mean, if you give me a choice between a level 15 high elf and level 20 human on dungeon level 40, I'll take the elf every time.

Of course, I also disagree with your theory that xp itself is extremely meaningful. What actually matters in angband is equipment and to a lesser extent stats, though stats are obviously more important early in the game. XP is all over the place, you just need to have the equipment and stats to take it. The way you get the equipment and stats is by diving deep, which is where superior stats, stealth, etc. come into play.

XP would be meaningful if stat growth, attack rate, etc. were based on it, but as it turns out, those are based on collecting potions instead. In reality, you don't need much xp until you're in the endgame (i.e. dlvl ~72-100) where you just need the hp to be able to take down the endgame uniques.

TJS September 10, 2015 09:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by mushroom patch (Post 104315)
What I'm saying is that a level 15 High-elf rogue plays like a level 20 human warrior (except it has spells). The level 15 High-elf rogue can go toe-to-toe with the same monsters, dive deeper, and get more experience from kills because of the way xp is computed. I mean, if you give me a choice between a level 15 high elf and level 20 human on dungeon level 40, I'll take the elf every time.

In terms of difficulty I would might take the high elf in that situation, but in terms of enjoyment I might go for the human because leveling up fast is fun.

Quote:

Of course, I also disagree with your theory that xp itself is extremely meaningful.
Levels means HP, SP and spells/prayers especially early on. The first few levels for a mage are very difficult regardless of class and humans get through those levels a lot faster. Things are more difficult later on, but that gives you a different type of game.

The game would be completely impossible if you modded it to prevent xp gain. You'd get a lot further without stat potions than without xp.


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