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-   -   Angband 4.2.3 (http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthread.php?t=10857)

Nick August 1, 2021 00:40

Angband 4.2.3
 
Angband 4.2.3 is now available for Windows, macOS and as source. It can be downloaded from the official site.

This version contains considerable bug-fixing - mostly by backwardsEric - and more class tweaks. It's also possible that the game will run faster than 4.2.2 - I'm interested to hear if this is indeed the case.

It will not be that last release in the 4.2 series - there are still code improvements going on. However there are no definite bugs outstanding (see here for the indefinite ones) and the changes since 4.2.2 make it IMHO worth a release now.

Summary of changes:
  • updates to necromancer and ranger spells
  • improvements to quiver inscriptions
  • many improvements to dungeon generation, especially robustness
  • many improvements to testing and building the game, especially with SDL2
  • make the duration of multiple timed effects exactly the same
  • allow selection for effects that used to give a random choice of effects
  • fix a bug that made radius of artifact lights too small by one
  • improvements to handling in-game information on effects
  • better documentation in datafiles
  • debugging commands now use the Angband 4 command system
  • upgrade of the NDS port to the 3DS with many improvements

As always, thanks to everyone who has contributed.

Ingwe Ingweron August 1, 2021 01:09

Congratulations Nick, BackwardsEric, and everyone who contributed to code and testing. What an achievement!

archolewa August 1, 2021 01:57

Being able to select an effect rather than just picking one at random is my favorite change. Wands of Dragon Breath are now *good* and one of my favorite wands when playing a device-focused Rogue.

will_asher August 1, 2021 06:49

Found a bug (Actually found in my variant but it was inherited from the changes I got from V):

'k' doesn't work as a direction when targeting because it's set to do something else at line 1209 in ui-target.c:

} else if (event_is_key(press, 'k') || event_is_key(press, KTRL('D')))

I changed it to this:
} else if ((!OPT(player, rogue_like_commands) && (event_is_key(press, 'k'))) || event_is_key(press, KTRL('D'))) {


We roguelike-key users would like to be able to move around correctly when targeting.

Nick August 1, 2021 07:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by will_asher (Post 154630)
Found a bug (Actually found in my variant but it was inherited from the changes I got from V):

'k' doesn't work as a direction when targeting because it's set to do something else at line 1209 in ui-target.c:

} else if (event_is_key(press, 'k') || event_is_key(press, KTRL('D')))

I changed it to this:
} else if ((!OPT(player, rogue_like_commands) && (event_is_key(press, 'k'))) || event_is_key(press, KTRL('D'))) {


We roguelike-key users would like to be able to move around correctly when targeting.

Yep, that one's already been found.

sffp August 2, 2021 17:23

Congrats Nick

Will a 4.2.2 character file be playable in 4.2.3

Nick August 2, 2021 22:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by sffp (Post 154652)
Congrats Nick

Will a 4.2.2 character file be playable in 4.2.3

Yes - any 4.2.y savefile should be usable in any 4.2.x version. Usual advice is to keep a copy of the savefile anyway :)

Sky August 3, 2021 19:30

*heavy sigh*

why has the 'p' key stopped being the magic key?

You know i have idk what, 10k hours in this game and can't just casually change my muscle memory, right?

Sky August 3, 2021 21:37

ok so, i'm CL24 and i still cannot learn any spell from - or even browse - P2.

archolewa August 3, 2021 22:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sky (Post 154665)
ok so, i'm CL24 and i still cannot learn any spell from - or even browse - P2.

Playing a paladin? They cant read the P2 spell book. They only have three spellbooks, while priests have 5. The description of the book says "You can read this book" if you can use it.

Sky August 3, 2021 22:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by archolewa (Post 154666)
Playing a paladin? They cant read the P2 spell book. They only have three spellbooks, while priests have 5. The description of the book says "You can read this book" if you can use it.

well my paladin can't.

rioght, i wizarded a character and discovered that paladins cant use P2, they use P3, a book with minimum depth DL30.

Pete Mack August 4, 2021 00:50

@sky--
Be patient. PB 3 is *great* and relatively common. I agree early PB 2 spells are a bit underwhelming Heal2000.

Nick August 4, 2021 01:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sky (Post 154667)
Quote:

Originally Posted by archolewa (Post 154666)
Playing a paladin? They cant read the P2 spell book. They only have three spellbooks, while priests have 5. The description of the book says "You can read this book" if you can use it.

well my paladin can't.

rioght, i wizarded a character and discovered that paladins cant use P2, they use P3, a book with minimum depth DL30.

OK, now just read what archolewa told you again :D

Pete Mack August 4, 2021 01:19

Sky--
Again: it is the third paladin book that is very powerful: Slay Evil, *Slay Demon*, Single Combat--and enchant weapon+armor, which are nice but not so lethal.

Sky August 4, 2021 01:25

no, there is no PB2. They can use PB1, PB3 and PB5.

a CL26 in 4.1 would have these additional spells:

1. portal
2. satisfy hunger
3. resist h/c
4. neutralize poison
5. sense surroundings
6. orb

with an investment of 500 gold. These are ALL fundamental utility spells that make up for the fact that i have 1.6 blows instead of 3.2. I currently deal 70 damage per round, against the 150-200 that a warrior would.

I found a stupidly OOD longbow of lothlorien which is how i've managed to make it into the low 20s but i am waaaay below my depth already.
There's no staves of teleport in the store. I am relying ton 5 scrolls of magic mapping, !phase and i've had to rest scum for potions. I can't dig so i need a slot for a ring. I can't see invisible so i need another slot for a ring. I'm wearing a damage +11 because otherwise i cant even kill orcs.
I need to carry food and arrows, another 4 slots. I dont resist blind or confuse so i need CLW, and i'm stashing CSW / CCW because things actually want to kill me.
PB1 is another slot.
i carry heroism or berserk because i dont resist fear and cant waste turns casting the spell. Obviously RLL because invisible breeders who drain life. !Mana takes another slot, although i honestly dont know WHAT i'm carrying it for, as i can only cast Light and CLW.

Im out of !Spd.
Luckily i have found ESP super early and also by absurd luck i have a shooter that deals 70 damage, but if i perchance run into Azog or anything OOD or that moves fast, my only hope is to recall and phase until it kicks in because i cannot kill it, i cannot evade it, and i actually have no idea where i am going because i can't even map.

i'm basically a shit warrior that has free Light; i could do that with a rod of Illumination.

Pete Mack August 4, 2021 01:50

The only one of those that is critical is resist heat and cold. I absolutely hate juggling !rHeat and !rCold depending on which uniques i want to kill. The others are trivial to replace with devices.

archolewa August 4, 2021 05:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete Mack (Post 154672)
The only one of those that is critical is resist heat and cold. I absolutely hate juggling !rHeat and !rCold depending on which uniques i want to kill. The others are trivial to replace with devices.

You don't even need !rCold. I regularly don't bother carrying those (just aren't enough big cold breathers to be worth it, and most of those are dragons who'll sleep through a nuclear holocaust). If I happen to find some on the same level as Scatha, I'll pop 'em and take him down, but otherwise ignore him until Con is maxed.

Even !rHeat, I don't usually look for until I'm in the endgame and want to kill off the Balrogs (I like to kill off all of the passwall and tunneling Uniques before fighting Morgoth).

normkewl August 6, 2021 15:05

Monster memory
 
Monster memory is not fully working on generational characters (a Roman numeral after the name). It is not remembering uniques, such as Farmer Maggot's Dogs, Lagduf(sp?) the Snaga, etc. This failure to remember monsters encountered by the player's ancestors is on all the nightly builds 4.2.3+

sffp August 6, 2021 15:39

Playing 4.2.3 for the first time, my human warrior is noticing that the ten iron shots of slay animal purchased at the store have remarkable resilience. despite frequent usage in dispatching hydras, I still have the same ten shots of slay animal

(not that Ospenya minds...)

As a matter of fact, now that I look at it, ALL of my ammo says 0% chance of breaking on contact...

Sky August 6, 2021 16:43

well, during my escapades i died .. a few times. I decided to carry on just to see what was there.

I got cornered by Huorns a couple times. As they have the same speed as me, and they blind me, i cannot Phase. Taking down one is feasible, but at the cost of *many* CCW.

i walked into a room. I know, i know, bad mistake. But i only have detect evil, no rods of detection. Wiruin breathed on me, and fair enough, if only it didnt look like it came from a vortex, but it did.

I finally got to DL97 at CL39, and here, despite being fairly decent at this game, could simply not cope.

Tons of passwall ganking me. I move at +10 and have only 1x Rod TO and 2x wand, with very few charges. I carry ?Rech but regardless, too much stuff. Serpents of chaos, balrogs having passwall, Gothmog and .. well, Lungorthin likes sleeping, so, but Maeglin, maya of Aule, and i seem to notice that Nazguls are back en forte to their 3.x level, stronger and summoning each other.
I also note that, for weird reasons, now Adunabeth The Quiet has lost his passwall ability.

I use passwall and kill-wall as one and the same. can't be bothered.

Oh, and the black breath.

Oh and somehow, being drained despite sustains. And no, not a time attack.

No word of destruction, no portal, not even earthquake.
I even found a ring of power that, for some incredible stroke of luck, activates for portal !!! and i still couldn't survive.

so, i'm happy for you if you like this, but i'm gonna call time on my adventure in future angband development.
Good luck on your future adventures.

archolewa August 6, 2021 17:54

@Sky Did you powerdive the second half of the game? I find that unless you're a mage or rogue, powerdiving and grinding the high 90s is not a particularly good idea. I do best if I descend fairly steadily. Map/Treausre detect most of each level, and go after any gear I can get to and uniques I can fight.

If I do that, I have little difficulty handling the bottom of the dungeon, especially as a paladin. Between Single Combat and Slay Demon Balrogs are almost loot pinatas.

Pete Mack August 6, 2021 20:22

@sky--
Powerdive to DL 84. Greater Balrogs are DL 85, and Lungorthin or Gothmog from DL 90+ will bring more.
Also, detection is a necessity unless you have very high stealth. Greater Balrogs wake up very easily in ESP range. Detect at greater distance and they are more avoidable.

sffp August 6, 2021 22:03

Started a rogue now after Kavlax took out my promising human warrior (note to self - do not angband during work calls regardless of how boring)

I'm noticing that I can't use p to start my magic (previous versions had p and m as interchangable...)

Ingwe Ingweron August 10, 2021 04:49

The new Random birth functions (*) or (@) in the nightlies for 4.2.3 are very cool! :cool: :D

Pete Mack August 10, 2021 17:30

Can necromancers eat Lembas? (It is poisonous to orcs, and Gollum refused it.)

Estie August 11, 2021 02:37

I have to agree with Sky here - I dont like the late game either. The beefed up new monsters are fine, but the density is not. Everything either boring through walls or having supreme pathfinding means @ is forced into tactical combat the moment he sets foot on the level. While this increases the danger, it also makes the dungeon small. It feels like I am entering a big weird-shaped room and it removes a strategic level of the game - decisions where to explore, what to avoid.

I want Angband to reproduce the feeling of Moria in the book. And that was not an action flick racing from one combat encounter to the next, it also had passages where the tension came from the darkness, the fear of the unknown, the decision which path to take.

I understand why Nick has done all this, but there are other ways to increase game difficulty. Lowering @ hitpoints for example. While that means more chances for instant death, I very much prefer it over the overblown mess that we have now.

I played tome2 for a long time, but returned to vanilla when I got sick of the monty haul game. I have a similar feeling again - having played the extreme new vanilla, I find myself yearning for a more basic game. Thats what vanilla should be, in my humble opinion. The new vanilla is like an extreme variant.

Nick - I am sorry for making this post. I love most of the things you have done, but the changes to monsters and pathfinding break it for me.

Nick August 11, 2021 03:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Estie (Post 154745)
I have to agree with Sky here - I dont like the late game either. The beefed up new monsters are fine, but the density is not. Everything either boring through walls or having supreme pathfinding means @ is forced into tactical combat the moment he sets foot on the level. While this increases the danger, it also makes the dungeon small. It feels like I am entering a big weird-shaped room and it removes a strategic level of the game - decisions where to explore, what to avoid.

OK, I'm listening, and I have a few questions:
  1. Which monsters are the main problem? Would it be solved by, for example, taking away tunneling from balrogs and making storms of unmagic rarer?
  2. Which classes are giving you the worst experience, and is there a noticeable difference?
  3. What gameplay difference are you seeing from better pathfinding?
  4. Is part of the problem too many vaults/pits/special rooms?

It's also worth saying that one of my aims was to make the increase in danger more steady as you descend, to get away from the old "get through statgain, and then dive to speed ring depth" technique that had arisen because there were few new monsters below level 50. One of the consequences of this is that DL98 should now be noticeably more dangerous than DL70.

Estie August 11, 2021 14:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick (Post 154746)
OK, I'm listening, and I have a few questions:
  1. Which monsters are the main problem? Would it be solved by, for example, taking away tunneling from balrogs and making storms of unmagic rarer?
  2. Which classes are giving you the worst experience, and is there a noticeable difference?
  3. What gameplay difference are you seeing from better pathfinding?
  4. Is part of the problem too many vaults/pits/special rooms?

It's also worth saying that one of my aims was to make the increase in danger more steady as you descend, to get away from the old "get through statgain, and then dive to speed ring depth" technique that had arisen because there were few new monsters below level 50. One of the consequences of this is that DL98 should now be noticeably more dangerous than DL70.

ad 1: Those two are the main offenders; uniques could be less frequent and hounds of Tindalos are also in the "destruct or leave level" category. Nether worms turn vaults into simple pits. I dont know if it would solve, but it would go a long way.

ad 2: Its the same for all classes.

ad 3: Teleport (other and self) doesnt get rid of most things. Sometimes, a dangerous but dumb monster would be visible through ESP, but blocked by geometry. You could deal with lesser threats while keeping tabs on the dangerous one, aware that phasing was not an option.

Generally speaking, you could do interesting things on a level; now, everything thats left is destruct or banish.

ad 4: I am not sure. The thing is that I want to spend most of my time on vault levels, so if you make them rare, I just keep searching longer (as it used to be).

On dlvl 60 a great vault is a terribly dangerous, but potentially lucrative feature. On 98, it becomes a lucrative safety feature thanks to perma walls.

To preserve the risk/reward status of vaults, you could make great weapons, the high dragon armors, rings of speed, the top artifacts as well as the super monsters like sky dragons all native to depths > 100. Storywise, it can be justified - the book is full of hints of things that are older, dangerous in their own right and that dont care about Sauron.

Alernatively, place Morgoth on dlvl 75.

Voovus August 11, 2021 19:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Estie (Post 154745)
it also had passages where the tension came from the darkness, the fear of the unknown, the decision which path to take.

For that kind of suspense you might like to dig out Rogue.

Nick August 11, 2021 22:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Estie (Post 154753)
ad 1: Those two are the main offenders; uniques could be less frequent and hounds of Tindalos are also in the "destruct or leave level" category. Nether worms turn vaults into simple pits. I dont know if it would solve, but it would go a long way.

OK, I'll start there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Estie (Post 154753)
ad 3: Teleport (other and self) doesnt get rid of most things. Sometimes, a dangerous but dumb monster would be visible through ESP, but blocked by geometry. You could deal with lesser threats while keeping tabs on the dangerous one, aware that phasing was not an option.

I'll have a think about what's possible and plausible here. I think the main issue is that monster hearing now is pretty much a "find the shortest path to the player" algorithm, and what we probably want is something extra in there that the player can exploit sometimes. Perhaps if a monster is close by direct distance but further by path distance they will have trouble finding the path (which would look like your "by geometry").

Quote:

Originally Posted by Estie (Post 154753)
To preserve the risk/reward status of vaults, you could make great weapons, the high dragon armors, rings of speed, the top artifacts as well as the super monsters like sky dragons all native to depths > 100. Storywise, it can be justified - the book is full of hints of things that are older, dangerous in their own right and that dont care about Sauron.

Alernatively, place Morgoth on dlvl 75.

Let's keep that up our sleeve and see how other things work first :)

mrfy August 12, 2021 03:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Estie (Post 154753)
ad 1: Those two are the main offenders; uniques could be less frequent and hounds of Tindalos are also in the "destruct or leave level" category. Nether worms turn vaults into simple pits. I dont know if it would solve, but it would go a long way.

I don't want uniques to be less frequent, I want to find them all and kill them.

Agree about hounds (Tindalos, Time, Aether, etc), they are annoying and sometimes are not worth dealing with. Nether worms I never find to be a problem. Black reavers though...

Plus, I agree with someone's suggestion that high-level dragons (Sky, Great Wyrm of Balance, Many Colours) should be made rarer, and perhaps live natively below level 100.

Quote:

Generally speaking, you could do interesting things on a level; now, everything thats left is destruct or banish.
Disagree. But perhaps my play style is different than yours. I like to kill monsters and take their treasure rather than relying on stealth.

AceRimmer August 12, 2021 05:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Estie (Post 154753)
Alternatively, place Morgoth on dlvl 75.

Ooooh, I like this. Well, actually, what I'm thinking is: why shouldn't monsters have a small but non-negligible chance of summoning Morgoth? Who's to say he never ventures out of the dungeon depths just to see how things are going on the upper levels? Keeping the underling in line? Okay, so it would probably ruin the game-play, but he would be the ultimate out-of-depth monster summon.

mrfy August 13, 2021 06:14

I'm noticing that every time I fire an arrow, I get the message: "You combine some items in your pack.". This is with multiple bundles of regular arrows (+0,+0) loaded in the quivers.

Looks like it is correctly firing from quiver #0, and then replacing that arrow with one from another quiver to keep the number loaded at 40. But it probably doesn't need to announce the message every time.

Perhaps it has been like this for a while, but seems like an annoying bug.

Playing the latest nightly.

ewert August 13, 2021 14:17

Killing uniques is the main thing I do, so making them rarer sounds like a real annoying idea to me.

I agree that tunnelers are a bit too common. Why would balrogs tunnel, that one I don't get at all. Umber hulks, storm of unmagic, sure, balrogs? Why?

Because tunnelers break tactics so badly, it is a bit masochistic to fight them, I still often do it because I like fighting not being a janitor. I do feel though that because of tunneler problem, graveyards go from risky/leechy/drainy fights to okay bye I am outta here once black reavers are mixed in.

The mass banish/banish/cheese tactics, outside of abstaining, my personal opinion still is to put gear items in vaults into random picks of the top mobs in the vault ...

archolewa August 13, 2021 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by ewert (Post 154780)

The mass banish/banish/cheese tactics, outside of abstaining, my personal opinion still is to put gear items in vaults into random picks of the top mobs in the vault ...

I was going to say this unfairly punishes Rogues, who dont have access to banishment cheese, but still arent tough enough to take on many top mobs. But then I realized this would make the otherwise useless steal xommand, and steal-and-teleport spell worth using...

Though this definitely hurts every other class really badly. Nobody can really fight Reavers, Greater Balrogs, or Wyrms without using way too many consumables. I think vaults would end up becoming shiny things you ignore.

Julian August 13, 2021 16:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by archolewa (Post 154781)
Though this definitely hurts every other class really badly. Nobody can really fight Reavers, Greater Balrogs, or Wyrms without using way too many consumables. I think vaults would end up becoming shiny things you ignore.

In my last win (warrior), I was totally fighting Reavers and Wyrms without worrying too much about consumables.

Balrogs were enough of a pain that I didn’t bother.

archolewa August 13, 2021 16:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julian (Post 154782)
In my last win (warrior), I was totally fighting Reavers and Wyrms without worrying too much about consumables.

Standarts or Randarts? I play Standarts, and the only time I can chew through Reavers and Wyrms is when In playing a Blackguard with Deathwreaker or Doomcaller.

backwardsEric August 13, 2021 16:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrfy (Post 154779)
I'm noticing that every time I fire an arrow, I get the message: "You combine some items in your pack.". This is with multiple bundles of regular arrows (+0,+0) loaded in the quivers.

That was a change in 4.2.3 to resolve https://github.com/angband/angband/issues/4882 : with stacks of 40 and 10 similar items using one from the stack of 40 would give a "You have 39 ..." message but a (silent) recombining of the pack would leave stacks of 40 and 9 which some felt was confusing. Firing from the last stack (highest numbered quiver slot) of the (+0, +0) arrows would avoid the recombining message, though that's admittedly less convenient since the slot number of the last stack can change while firing.

Nick August 13, 2021 23:28

The latest release from the releases page has the following changes to monsters:
  • Abyss worm masses, hasty ents, hounds of Tindalos, Makar and storms of unmagic are rarer;
  • Greater Balrogs, Lungorthin and Gothmog no longer tunnel.
Let's see how that goes. I have some ideas about making monster pathfinding less effective, but would like to get an idea of how things stand now first.

will_asher August 13, 2021 23:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick (Post 154785)
The latest release from the releases page has the following changes to monsters:
  • Abyss worm masses, hasty ents, hounds of Tindalos, Makar and storms of unmagic are rarer;
  • Greater Balrogs, Lungorthin and Gothmog no longer tunnel.
Let's see how that goes. I have some ideas about making monster pathfinding less effective, but would like to get an idea of how things stand now first.

Why do hasty ents tunnel at all? That doesn't really makes sense to me. (It makes a lot more sense for balrogs than it does for ents imo. For RubberBand, I took KILL_WALL off of ents and most balrogs, but left it on Lungorthin and Gothmog.)

Nick August 13, 2021 23:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by will_asher (Post 154786)
Why do hasty ents tunnel at all? That doesn't really makes sense to me. (It makes a lot more sense for balrogs than it does for ents imo. For RubberBand, I took KILL_WALL off of ents and most balrogs, but left it on Lungorthin and Gothmog.)

"An angry Ent is terrifying. Their fingers, and their toes, just freeze on to rock; and they tear it up like bread-crust. It was like watching the work of great tree-roots in a hundred years, all packed into a few moments." - Merry.

will_asher August 14, 2021 00:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick (Post 154787)
"An angry Ent is terrifying. Their fingers, and their toes, just freeze on to rock; and they tear it up like bread-crust. It was like watching the work of great tree-roots in a hundred years, all packed into a few moments." - Merry.

I stand corrected.

ewert August 14, 2021 04:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by archolewa (Post 154781)
I was going to say this unfairly punishes Rogues, who dont have access to banishment cheese, but still arent tough enough to take on many top mobs. But then I realized this would make the otherwise useless steal xommand, and steal-and-teleport spell worth using...

Though this definitely hurts every other class really badly. Nobody can really fight Reavers, Greater Balrogs, or Wyrms without using way too many consumables. I think vaults would end up becoming shiny things you ignore.

To be fair, I don't think any class should be considered as unable to kill stuff. :) Some are just faster as they lack utility.

But you would still have the consumables in the floor. Often you might lack consumables, and cheesing the vault floor will be quick source of those.

Sphara August 14, 2021 07:54

What's with huge failure percentage activating worn items as a warrior? Have things changed or was it really always like this?

Ring of Ice and Blue Dragon Scale Mail have 62% failure playing XL25 Dunadan Warrior. Those items are not overly powerful and they have long recharge period. Warrior already gets lower damage using devices.

archolewa August 14, 2021 08:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by ewert (Post 154789)
To be fair, I don't think any class should be considered as unable to kill stuff. :) Some are just faster as they lack utility.

But you would still have the consumables in the floor. Often you might lack consumables, and cheesing the vault floor will be quick source of those.

Ehhh... not in my experience. The only times I've ever had to grind beyond the point of boredom was in the endgame when I was low on consumables. And I got low on consumables because I was too aggressive.

And I suppose what I mean by "can't really kill them" what I mean is "can't kill them without either burning through way too many consumables, or putting yourself at way too high risk of dying."

Nick August 14, 2021 08:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sphara (Post 154790)
What's with huge failure percentage activating worn items as a warrior? Have things changed or was it really always like this?

Ring of Ice and Blue Dragon Scale Mail have 62% failure playing XL25 Dunadan Warrior. Those items are not overly powerful and they have long recharge period. Warrior already gets lower damage using devices.

There was a change about six weeks ago which probably caused this - see this thread.

Sphara August 14, 2021 08:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick (Post 154792)
There was a change about six weeks ago which probably caused this - see this thread.

Didn't understand much of this but thanks for pointing that there indeed was a change :)

Those are excessive numbers for early-game devices. I suppose early warrior doesn't need to rely on items like BDSM and RoI, but now their activation is borderline useless. Unless you develop a tolerance for even more "you failed to activate it properly" -messages.

ewert August 14, 2021 12:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by archolewa (Post 154791)
Ehhh... not in my experience. The only times I've ever had to grind beyond the point of boredom was in the endgame when I was low on consumables. And I got low on consumables because I was too aggressive.

And I suppose what I mean by "can't really kill them" what I mean is "can't kill them without either burning through way too many consumables, or putting yourself at way too high risk of dying."

Sounds like a classic catch-22, either you need more consumables if you are actually killing stuff, or you are not killing stuff and not needing more consumables? ;)

However, if we put say the top 3 gear items in a vault to random top 10 mobs in the vault, it would incentivize a moderate kill/consumables change, as instead of just flicking everything away from a vault you would rather kill the stuff.

Could be just a % thing as well, so that big vaults have more in mobs and small vaults might have just one item, so risk vs reward.

MattB August 14, 2021 23:50

Wow.
I had already learned to detest blood falcons - in a good way X-D - but this was brutal...

Quote:

[Last Messages]

> *** LOW HITPOINT WARNING! ***
> The blood falcon claws you (10).
> *** LOW HITPOINT WARNING! ***
> The blood falcon bites you (16).
> *** LOW HITPOINT WARNING! ***
> You have learned the rune of teleportation ban.
> Your Leather Scale Mail prevents you teleporting.
> You have learned the rune of anti-teleportation curse.
> Teleportation forbidden!
> You have 5 Scrolls of Teleportation (g).
> The blood falcon claws you (12).
> *** LOW HITPOINT WARNING! ***
> The blood falcon claws you (15).
> You die.

Pete Mack August 15, 2021 03:02

That is brutal. Ouch!

sffp August 19, 2021 21:32

Ok -

So now I'm a priest and the p for prayer key has stopped working.
It was bad enough for magic casters, but for priests?

Pete Mack August 19, 2021 22:19

With addition of 2 more realms, all casting has been unified to 'm'. ('P' is still peruse.)
I suppose the alternative was to add 'c'urse and 's'ing. Ypu can always add a keymap.

sffp August 20, 2021 02:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete Mack (Post 154851)
With addition of 2 more realms, all casting has been unified to 'm'. ('P' is still peruse.)
I suppose the alternative was to add 'c'urse and 's'ing. Ypu can always add a keymap.

Wasn't that way in 4.2.2 or 4.2.1...

It would make sense if you changed it to something else - but to just unmap it.
ick.

p has always been more convenient for my spell casting.

Would rather be able to remap m

Nick August 20, 2021 02:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by sffp (Post 154853)
Wasn't that way in 4.2.2 or 4.2.1...

Yes, my bad - it should have been removed in 4.2.0 :)

The 'p' key is free for now, so you can easily set a keymap to it.

MattB August 20, 2021 12:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick (Post 154854)
for now

... ... ...

Egavactip August 23, 2021 18:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick (Post 154785)
The latest release from the releases page has the following changes to monsters:
  • Abyss worm masses, hasty ents, hounds of Tindalos, Makar and storms of unmagic are rarer;
  • Greater Balrogs, Lungorthin and Gothmog no longer tunnel.
Let's see how that goes. I have some ideas about making monster pathfinding less effective, but would like to get an idea of how things stand now first.

Glad to hear all this. I pointed out these out a while ago as being particularly frustrating.

malcontent August 23, 2021 19:07

I was surprised that my CL48 Druid only had a 38% chance of success to activate Power Dragon Scale Mail. After failing a few times, I gave up and eventually finished without ever activating the PDSM.

I think I read that some of the activation rates were decreased in 4.2.3, but wow, that seems a bit harsh.

ewert August 24, 2021 02:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by malcontent (Post 154909)
I was surprised that my CL48 Druid only had a 38% chance of success to activate Power Dragon Scale Mail. After failing a few times, I gave up and eventually finished without ever activating the PDSM.

I think I read that some of the activation rates were decreased in 4.2.3, but wow, that seems a bit harsh.

Yea saw bit of the same.

On average, my opinion is that max level chars shouldn't be over 10% fails, no matter the item. If it is a class that's supposed to be good, close to 1% fail should be norm for most things (RNG will still kill you eventually if you rely on them in life or death situations).

During leveling, the fail rates can be harsh, but end points shouldn't be insane. This reminds me of pseudo id back in the day, when it was totally pointless for most classes...

mrfy August 28, 2021 17:31

From latest nightly:

You see 3 Gold Potions.

I attempt to quaff and I get the choice to randomly breathe, or select a cone of fire or frost.

If I hit escape, the potions aren't identified, they're still listed as "Gold Potions". But I already know what they are from the attempt to quaff. Selecting an option to breathe then does it and identifies them as Dragon Breath. Seems like a bug.

Nick August 28, 2021 22:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrfy (Post 155034)
From latest nightly:

You see 3 Gold Potions.

I attempt to quaff and I get the choice to randomly breathe, or select a cone of fire or frost.

If I hit escape, the potions aren't identified, they're still listed as "Gold Potions". But I already know what they are from the attempt to quaff. Selecting an option to breathe then does it and identifies them as Dragon Breath. Seems like a bug.

Agreed, thanks.

Nick August 29, 2021 03:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrfy (Post 155034)
If I hit escape, the potions aren't identified, they're still listed as "Gold Potions". But I already know what they are from the attempt to quaff. Selecting an option to breathe then does it and identifies them as Dragon Breath. Seems like a bug.

This is fixed in the latest build, fix by backwardsEric.

There is also a change, suggested by Julian, so the keymap termination key is '=' instead of '$'. This is to allow the $ key to be used for future commands or keymaps, where the = kay is already a command and unlikely to be used in keymaps. Apologies to all the people who had a keymap for changing their hitpoint warning or whatever :)

sffp September 1, 2021 21:34

Is there any reason that rods of Magic Mapping had their success rates nerfed?

I mean, it's a utility spell. I don't use it much in battle. I just have to keep hitting n 10 times in a row (33% - sure it is...)

It's really just an annoyance.

Pete Mack September 1, 2021 21:40

No. It should be depth 30 with initial frequency 0 to make it easier.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sffp (Post 155112)
Is there any reason that rods of Magic Mapping had their success rates nerfed?

I mean, it's a utility spell. I don't use it much in battle. I just have to keep hitting n 10 times in a row (33% - sure it is...)

It's really just an annoyance.


Nick September 1, 2021 21:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by sffp (Post 155112)
Is there any reason that rods of Magic Mapping had their success rates nerfed?

There was a long discussion about the change that led to this in this development thread and this issue.

This is not the first complaint there's been, we may need to tweak parameters.

ewert September 2, 2021 01:58

Well, it is an opinion thing yeah. Personally, I feel that level should play a bigger role than race/class. I am lacking in my lore to give good examples I guess, but in the line of thinking for example that an epic level warrior is so experienced that yes, he can activate magic items. Whereas a newb mage's only skills are in activating stuff and casting a single spell.

Total skill (class*level+race) would be more the bonus effects, while level modified with class would be the activate chance (level+class+race). In order of importance.

mountain_monk September 8, 2021 14:57

Bug?
 
2 Attachment(s)
Hello,

I don't really use github not sure if bug anyway. A few things I've never seen before and not listed as new features/changes.

Recently had a new level which was peculiar in how long it took to create.

Then it was a cave level that had a simple vault in it, but the vault would not be revealed by a magic map.

I've attached screenshot. I was coming from the left side of screen, as I hit the vault I did a magic map and everything to the right showed up, but not the vault. Also attached screen after clearing vault.

edit - fyi, compiled (which I've done many times) for raspberry pi

Werbaer September 8, 2021 15:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountain_monk (Post 155205)
Then it was a cave level that had a simple vault in it, but the vault would not be revealed by a magic map.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick (Post 151747)
Not a bug :D

This is a new, rare type of level ("gauntlet") first introduced in 4.2.1. It features two caverns joined by a labyrinth section, with the special conditions that
  • The player always arrives on the left cavern, and the only downstairs are on the right;
  • The centre labyrinth portion (the gauntlet) is not mappable;
  • You cannot teleport from either the left cavern or the gauntlet (although you seem to have teleported from the left cavern - so maybe a bug there).
So far this is the only use of unmappable areas and no teleport areas; there is no use of no ESP areas yet.

(at least 10 characters of text needed)

mountain_monk September 9, 2021 18:26

change to keymaping?
 
Thanks for info on map design not being a bug.

Noticed another change that has caused me a bit of a problem. I use roguekeys. When I hit 'x' to examine, all the navigation keys work to move around map at objects, except 'k' which seems to be working non-rogue like as 'ignore'. Pretty sure that's not how it worked before.

tangar September 9, 2021 21:02

there is a suggestion from Tangaria player Linker to auto show spells descriptions at 'b'rowse screen

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...92/unknown.png

so you won't need to push '?'

backwardsEric September 9, 2021 22:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountain_monk (Post 155218)
Noticed another change that has caused me a bit of a problem. I use roguekeys. When I hit 'x' to examine, all the navigation keys work to move around map at objects, except 'k' which seems to be working non-rogue like as 'ignore'. Pretty sure that's not how it worked before.

Thanks for reporting that. It should be fixed in the post 4.2.3 builds (another report is here, https://github.com/angband/angband/issues/4973 , and the intended fix is here, https://github.com/angband/angband/pull/4977 ).


Quote:

Originally Posted by tangar (Post 155219)
there is a suggestion from Tangaria player Linker to auto show spells descriptions at 'b'rowse screen

That, I believe, has also been implemented in the post 4.2.3 builds, thanks to MarbleDice. The change is here, https://github.com/angband/angband/pull/4991 .

tangar September 10, 2021 07:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by backwardsEric (Post 155224)
That, I believe, has also been implemented in the post 4.2.3 builds, thanks to MarbleDice. The change is here, https://github.com/angband/angband/pull/4991 .

Cool, thanks :) it's funny that this idea was implemented just recently.. so the same idea came to different heads at the same moment (often situation in real life)

PowerWyrm September 10, 2021 08:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by tangar (Post 155219)
there is a suggestion from Tangaria player Linker to auto show spells descriptions at 'b'rowse screen so you won't need to push '?'

This was the case before and was changed around v3-v4 for a reason that eludes me...

Ingwe Ingweron September 10, 2021 19:56

Just for flavor, I'd love to see some of the dialogue from FAAngband incorporated into Vanilla. Just finished knocking off Morgoth there, and it was a real pleasure to read all the diatribes he was spouting, him along with many of the other uniques. :D

Ingwe Ingweron September 11, 2021 19:16

Is it just me, or is "Notify recharge" not working?

EDIT: Ok, it is working, but no audible sound is played on the notification. Shouldn't there be?

Selkie September 13, 2021 15:07

Every time I leave a level I can see a purple unique flash up very briefly in the monster display window. Is this a thing?

Ingwe Ingweron September 13, 2021 19:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Selkie (Post 155338)
Every time I leave a level I can see a purple unique flash up very briefly in the monster display window. Is this a thing?

That effect has been there a very long time. I've never bothered to report it as a bug, since (i) I don't know that it actually contains any leaked information, and (ii) I've never bothered to record it and go back frame-by-frame to find out.

backwardsEric September 13, 2021 19:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Selkie (Post 155338)
Every time I leave a level I can see a purple unique flash up very briefly in the monster display window. Is this a thing?

Selkie and Ingwe, what front-end are you using when you see this? It's not clear that it matters, but it might help trying to diagnose the problem. Also, is it something you always see or does it only happen if the character has a source of ESP?

Sideways September 13, 2021 21:41

There was (is?) an issue in FA2 with real but non-visible monsters on the level being entered being very briefly listed in the monster subwindow. I don't know if it was related to this in any way, though. (It didn't necessarily involve uniques; in fact, it most frequently triggered in the town with village idiots, filthy street urchins and the like, and my conclusion was that it involved monsters who would have been visible were the town fully lit.)

Selkie September 15, 2021 09:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ingwe Ingweron (Post 155341)
That effect has been there a very long time. I've never bothered to report it as a bug, since (i) I don't know that it actually contains any leaked information, and (ii) I've never bothered to record it and go back frame-by-frame to find out.

I've only noticed it since 4.2.3. I don't think it causes any harm, it's more a curiosity.

@backwardsEric it happens every time I leave a level and not only when I have ESP.

Ingwe Ingweron September 15, 2021 16:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Selkie (Post 155362)
I've only noticed it since 4.2.3. I don't think it causes any harm, it's more a curiosity.

I've been aware of that flash effect all the way back to the 3.2.x days.

Selkie September 15, 2021 19:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ingwe Ingweron (Post 155341)
That effect has been there a very long time. I've never bothered to report it as a bug, since (i) I don't know that it actually contains any leaked information, and (ii) I've never bothered to record it and go back frame-by-frame to find out.

http://imgur.com/a/B50OoIs

Ok here's a screen grab of what flicks onto the monster display when I leave a level. It's a strange list! Remember, none of these monsters were here previously.

It's a screen grab from a 240fps video in my phone, sorry about the quality

https://imgur.com/a/B50OoIs

clouded September 15, 2021 19:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Selkie (Post 155370)
http://imgur.com/a/B50OoIs

Ok here's a screen grab of what flicks onto the monster display when I leave a level. It's a strange list! Remember, none of these monsters were here previously.

It's a screen grab from a 240fps video in my phone, sorry about the quality

https://imgur.com/a/B50OoIs

More importantly, are those monsters on the level you land on? I noticed this too while playing FA though I also didn't report it or pay close enough attention to see if it gave information. I think I could sort of gauge if there was going to be a vault on the level though.

Selkie September 15, 2021 20:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by clouded (Post 155371)
More importantly, are those monsters on the level you land on? I noticed this too while playing FA though I also didn't report it or pay close enough attention to see if it gave information. I think I could sort of gauge if there was going to be a vault on the level though.

That was a good thought so I tested it and yep they're all there.

So effectively by taking a high fps video on my phone I can see every single monster on the dungeon level. That's interesting

Nick September 15, 2021 22:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Selkie (Post 155372)
That was a good thought so I tested it and yep they're all there.

So effectively by taking a high fps video on my phone I can see every single monster on the dungeon level. That's interesting

OK, I'm taking notice now :)

Ingwe Ingweron September 16, 2021 17:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Selkie (Post 155370)
http://imgur.com/a/B50OoIs

Ok here's a screen grab of what flicks onto the monster display when I leave a level. It's a strange list! Remember, none of these monsters were here previously.

Interesting. But only of interest, since it flashes when @ leaves a level, it provides no help. Maybe even a feeling of loss that you didn't find those uniques and get what they were holding.

backwardsEric September 16, 2021 18:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Selkie (Post 155372)
That was a good thought so I tested it and yep they're all there.

So effectively by taking a high fps video on my phone I can see every single monster on the dungeon level. That's interesting

Recent builds of Angband (4.2.3-76-...) and FAangband (2.0.0-31-...) have a change that may plug the information leak. I say may because I haven't been able to see the leak in the Mac version (likely because screen updates are handled lazily) and it didn't show up in quick tests with the X11 version on Linux.

Selkie September 16, 2021 22:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ingwe Ingweron (Post 155381)
Interesting. But only of interest, since it flashes when @ leaves a level, it provides no help. Maybe even a feeling of loss that you didn't find those uniques and get what they were holding.

No, you misunderstood. It shows every single monster on the level you have arrived on. I've tested it several times. I only ever noticed it in the first place because of the purple uniques. If your phone can record slow mo then test it yourself. By my calculations of the number of frames, I think it displays for 1/24th of a second. It even cycles through the pages when there are more monsters than can be displayed.

PowerWyrm September 20, 2021 09:36

There's a potential crash when digging rubble:

Code:

/* Create a simple object */
                                place_object(cave, grid, player->depth, false, false,
                                                        ORIGIN_RUBBLE, 0);

                                /* Observe the new object */
                                if (!ignore_item_ok(player,
                                                square_object(cave, grid))
                                                && square_isseen(cave, grid)) {
                                        msg("You have found something!");
                                }

The place_object() function is not 100% guaranteed to generate an object at that location, which would produce a NULL pointer in square_object() on the line after.

Nick September 20, 2021 11:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by PowerWyrm (Post 155430)
There's a potential crash when digging rubble

Thanks, bug filed.

Bill Peterson September 21, 2021 04:59

First time really playing with randarts. I can accept two successive characters finding an Arkenstone with telepathy early, but two artifact stars being generated? Is that supposed to be possible?

http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=24659

Nick September 21, 2021 05:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Peterson (Post 155448)
First time really playing with randarts. I can accept two successive characters finding an Arkenstone with telepathy early, but two artifact stars being generated? Is that supposed to be possible?

Yes, that's fine now. Before 4.1 all randart games got exactly one each of Phial, Star and Arkenstone; now it's a random selection of those and artifact torches and lanterns.

Pete Mack September 21, 2021 06:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Peterson (Post 155448)
First time really playing with randarts. I can accept two successive characters finding an Arkenstone with telepathy early, but two artifact stars being generated? Is that supposed to be possible?

It is possible, but it is astoundingly lucky to find all three by DL 22.

Selkie September 21, 2021 07:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Peterson (Post 155448)
First time really playing with randarts. I can accept two successive characters finding an Arkenstone with telepathy early, but two artifact stars being generated? Is that supposed to be possible?

http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=24659

This is the thing with playing with randarts, that's why I like it. You see your next two successive characters will find a randart lamp with +3 searching, acid resistance and activate for bless.

Bill Peterson September 21, 2021 16:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick (Post 155449)
Yes, that's fine now. Before 4.1 all randart games got exactly one each of Phial, Star and Arkenstone; now it's a random selection of those and artifact torches and lanterns.

Does this mean that we're limited to three artifact lights or could another Arkenstone be generated?

Incredible luck with randart lights, but I've thrown away all the randart weapons in favor of egos.

Grotug September 21, 2021 18:11

Recently I found two Arkenstones in the same game and both had the same bonus of Confusion protection.

Hounded September 21, 2021 21:04

Call Lightning only targets lighted squares.
 
Not sure if this is intentional behaviour or not.

Playing a Dwarf Druid (with Infravision) and using the call lighting spell I can cast and target it upon a mob which I can "see" but is not on a lighted square. The spell doesn't execute however, just cancels the operation until I'm close enough that they're in my light radius.

By way of testing it exectues fine for MoB's in any LoS in a lit room so I presume there's something that prevents the target from being registered on darkened squares.

(4.2.3 Windows release on Ubuntu c/o WINE)

Nick September 21, 2021 22:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Peterson (Post 155455)
Does this mean that we're limited to three artifact lights or could another Arkenstone be generated?

There are no actual restrictions on the number of any kind of light. Randart generation tries to statistically mimic the standart artifact set; the most you can really say is on average you would expect to get about three artifact light sources. So getting 5 Arkenstones and nothing else isn't out of the question.

Nick September 21, 2021 22:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hounded (Post 155458)
Not sure if this is intentional behaviour or not.

Playing a Dwarf Druid (with Infravision) and using the call lighting spell I can cast and target it upon a mob which I can "see" but is not on a lighted square. The spell doesn't execute however, just cancels the operation until I'm close enough that they're in my light radius.

By way of testing it exectues fine for MoB's in any LoS in a lit room so I presume there's something that prevents the target from being registered on darkened squares.

(4.2.3 Windows release on Ubuntu c/o WINE)

The rule is the target monster has to be in line of sight, and on a known grid - so visited or seen, and not re-darkened by a darkness spell or similar.

kineahora September 24, 2021 07:04

quits after inscriptions
 
Hi im playing on a MAcbook. I been playing versions of this game going back to Moria or UMORIA in 1988 LOLz

Still getting occasional quits when doing certain inscriptions. Latest was when doing a @m1@b1=g2 inscription on the basic prayer book for paladins. I noticed ti didnt give me problems with @m1=g2. Something about the browse inscription...

Admittedly I don't know how to get the very latest builds of 4.2.3 I think I downloaded in August. I think my greater Balrogs still tunnel.

kineahora September 24, 2021 07:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick (Post 154785)
The latest release from the releases page has the following changes to monsters:
  • Abyss worm masses, hasty ents, hounds of Tindalos, Makar and storms of unmagic are rarer;
  • Greater Balrogs, Lungorthin and Gothmog no longer tunnel.
Let's see how that goes. I have some ideas about making monster pathfinding less effective, but would like to get an idea of how things stand now first.

LOVE this change. Hasty ents having boring is certainly a threat but supported by the lore--they just needed to be less common. My current character is in good shape to win (two +15 rings of speed, +9 elvenkind boots, Vilya, arkenstone, PDSM, crown of Gondor). Greater Balrogs dont bother max paladins much--Single combat (mce) is the Bomb.com for summoners and tunnelers, and of course *demon bane*. How do I get the new version that has these changes? just re-download 4.2.3?? or is it only available on versions that have to be manually compiled?

There was a lot of discussion on other threads about not single-combatting Wiruin the Maelstrom. I completely disagree with this. Paladins cannot corner-wall scum him with ball spells, and his summonses of aether and time vortices are really a problem. I would NOT do this without a very strong character but if you have 1000 HP and very good speed over 3.0, it's really the only way to kill it. Just make sure you have (A) sound resistance (B) a nice stash of restore Mana (C) some decent consumable healing just in case.

One of my biggest beefs with the current implementation/balance is the TIME attack. It's a real PITA and I just don't think it should be able to banjax your stats when you have sustains. I'm good with it screwing your experience, but it's just too unfair. Even though I have now foound 2 rods of restoration, I just won't engage Hounds of Tindalos/aether/time hounds and vortices and Great Wyrms of Annihilation. I don't mind the implementation non those nasty wyrms because they are not pack monsters and have speed 2.0 allowing you to TO and avoid them. But the pack monsters with time are too much. I think Black Breath should be special and I like that it screws up even sustained stats because it's limited to the Ringwraiths that have special lore and their damage is supposed to be a big threat. We really do not need time hounds and can we just remove time from Aether/Tindalos hounds? Leaving the vortices adds to the difficulty of Wiruin which is fine, and the fact they aren't detected by telepathy is a pain too.

I like the overall balance of paladins--they would be too easy with portal and OOD, and those are the whole reason to play a priest. Paladins get single combat which is totally awesome. I wonder if I should try to pull a Fingolfin and single-combat Morgoth--then again Fingolfin lost, and I don't even have Ringil 8-). In this manner single-combat *is* supported in the lore, but really kinda only that one instance. Most characters don't get to insist on single combat--that's the whole reason Morgoth used up his power creating Balrogs and dragons etc.

Items balance:
Standarts: I find that after powerful amulets went into the game (older versions basically had just wisdom and then the artifacts), the big non-artifact amulets became a little too powerful relative to the best artifacts. In particular I think Ingwe (the highest elf of all) and the Nauglamir--legendary, so powerful and beautiful it caused wars should really stand out, and with amulets of trickery and weaponmastery being so good, I find these two artifacts don't really shine. I think Elessar was recently nerfed of combat bonuses which is OK--it's a 3rd age non-ring artifact worn by a Dunadan. Would you consider slight buffs to Nauglamir and Ingwe that might elevate them above Weaponmastery and Trickery? Maybe an immunity or a modest combat bonus, broader stat bonuses, or increasing the damage done by Ingwe activation and/or its charge frequency... Also I always found Tulkas' ring to be kind of underwhelming--only a major God and the best fighter of all time, maybe his ring should rival the elven rings of power? But of course he really didn't need much help from items (he didnt bother with a weapon) so that makes sense too...


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