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-   -   New to Angband, warriors and rogues and what´s up with overeating?! (http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthread.php?t=10388)

andvare November 10, 2020 16:36

New to Angband. Warriors, rogues and overeating?
 
Hi all, new to this game and enjoying it so far.

I have tried a few of the race/class combinations but naturally had my most success with Half-Troll/Warrior. I can see why it is so widely endorsed, the HP, regen and damage lets you familiarize yourself with the game without dying too quickly.

It seems to be me that */Rogue is the more metaclass, once you have a good understanding of the fundamentals since the class
allows you to detect objects/enemies, steal and sneak.

What do you think about the warrior and Rogue? Also, do warriors get more blows than Rogue?

Also, on a side note, I think the slowness from overeating is an irritating mechanic that doesnt seem to add much, is there some rationale Im missing that makes it justified? Can it be removed?

Edit: Restructured the text and corrected spelling errors.
Edit2: I attempted to edit the topic in order to remove the special character, but it did not work.

Sphara November 10, 2020 17:58

Hello, and welcome to the forum for my part.

Half Troll Warrior is certainly the easiest combo to begin with and they stay strong through the whole game.
Rogue relies on stealth, great back-up spells and decent melee. Rogues, like all classes really, become very strong as the game progresses.

Rogue attacks per turn caps at 5, whereas warrior gets 6 attacks, when you have gathered enough STRength and DEXterity.

As for food, I try to ignore it and not even carry it. I just eat from a dungeon floor. That can be problematic, though, if you play Half-Troll as regeneration increases food digestion.

andvare November 10, 2020 18:09

Hi and thank you for the quick reply!

Do you think rogues are the more efficient class, i.e. less turns needed to win the game?

wobbly November 10, 2020 18:51

Rogues are very fast to win if you fight the final battle with not enough hps to allow Morgoth LOS. Its possible druids will do a better turn count due to the fast move in some of their shapeshifts.

Sphara November 10, 2020 19:13

Beating the game fast requires several conditions. Probably too many for me to list and analyze here tonight. Most characters are powerhouses at the end and masters of their own specialties.

For a warrior, the specialty is killing things fast with melee and launchers.

For a rogue, they are picking your fights with stealth and detection spells and having great escape spells. Rogue, especially the one who gets all three spellbooks quickly, is probably faster to win than a warrior on average.

These are not, of course, written in stone. A luck with items you'll find, is a big factor. One big artifact can change things dramatically.

andvare November 10, 2020 20:12

Meh, just died at level 22 against a swarm of hummerhorns due to confusion.
"This will be easy...", I thought when engaging. Lovely.

DavidMedley November 10, 2020 20:18

Plug: Blackguards have rConf and attack-all-adjacent spells that are good against hummerhorns.

Estie November 10, 2020 20:25

Hi!

I dont think there is something that can be considered "meta" for this game. Different people have different playstyles.

The warrior class in in a weak position for the current version. Their only advantage is in the very early game from higher starting stats; in the lategame, more blows is a myth. It is a negligible damage increase with the big heavy weapon you are likely to use and gets blown away by what spells bring to the table (slay evil, bear form etc).

I wouldnt worry about winning fast just yet; and I assume you mean real-time fast, as opposed to turn-count fast. While the druid's runspeed shifts help with the latter, that doesnt necessarily translate to game time speed since it takes some time to constantly use shift.

To win the game, you need a lot of knowledge about monsters and game mechanics in the later game. Youre probably going to die a lot acquiring this; alternatively, you can discipline yourself more and make rigid use of rods of probing, but either way, its going to take time.

I recommend trying mage. They have to avoid unpleasant situations right from the start (while the HT-warrior just waltzes through everything) and the sooner you learn how to foresee those and to react appropriately, the faster youll be able to win.

andvare November 10, 2020 20:40

Quote:

The warrior class in in a weak position for the current version. Their only advantage is in the very early game from higher starting stats; in the lategame, more blows is a myth. It is a negligible damage increase with the big heavy weapon you are likely to use and gets blown away by what spells bring to the table (slay evil, bear form etc).
So the warrior in not meta? ;) Jokes aside, is this per design on has there been discussions on how to make the warrior a more attractive choice?

By time I mean turn count. I checked the Angband ladder and it seems almost all warriors attempt winning on level 50 and a very high turncount, presumably after grinding safely.

Estie November 10, 2020 21:09

People dont necessarily play strong combos. More often its other reasons that decide the race/class, like trying new or rarley used or low synergized or just, as mentioned earlier, personal preference.

But even if by meta you strictly mean "strong combos" (why call that meta though), there has been no end of arguments on these forums about what is strong.

"is this per design on has there been discussions on how to make the warrior a more attractive choice"

This is exactly my point. You equal strong with attractive, but I dare say the majority of players here dont. The warrior having become weak might make it more attractive to some.

There is no need to balance the classes in this game. While it has been done (more or less) in the past, the races certainly werent balanced and if anything, that makes the game more interesting - you can pick your difficulty.

As for the intention of it all youll have to ask Nick; my guess it that it just has happened randomly with the changes he implemented and he is probably not aware of the full effects of everything yet.

Nick November 10, 2020 22:20

As Estie says, there is no real balancing of classes or races against each other - Since I've been maintainer they've probably become less balanced if anything. My aim is to try and maximise fun and variety.

As for the overeating mechanic, that has been recognised as overdone; in the latest development version it's been changed so that digestion becomes much faster when full, so at worst it's about 10 turns of penalty.

Pete Mack November 10, 2020 22:37

I just won in 88k player turns with a warrior. On the other hand, I found the Trident of Wrath at DL 40/CL 33 and used it the rest of the game, with occasional swaps to Aglarang. I definitely got 6 blows.
That said, i agree that for HT, 6 blows is nearly impossible, and heavy weapons bring max blows down to a little over 5. But the strength multiplier and extra stats makes a big difference for standard artifacts.

BTW: Best Bert/Bill/Tom drop ever.

Estie November 11, 2020 01:02

My earliest Wrath find was from Wormtongue; more likely event having him drop it than Bert trio, I guess.

As for warrior balance, even the "bad" 2k heal alone makes up for the extra blow (percentage) in the late game; but imagine finding Pain instead of Wrath.

archolewa November 11, 2020 04:09

Personally, I've won several times with a warrior (three or four I think) and never with a mage, despite trying many times. I've only won once with a Rogue, and that was with 4.2.0, before wand recharging got nerfed a bit. So the warrior doesn't feel weak to me, just better aligned with a different playstyle.

I really like the warrior because their high HP gives you room for error. You're much less likely to get one-shotted by a breath because you mistook Kevlax the Many Headed for a young dragon. You're also less likely to get thrown into tough situations by the RNG (i.e. your frostbolt spell fails three time in a row and suddenly a podunk Hydra becomes a major threat because you're almost out of SP and the hydra still has lots of HP).

They're also, paradoxically much less dependent on dungeon drops. Mages need specific drops (i.e. the dungeon books) to become more powerful. Warriors just need speed, resistances, and weapons (and telepathy). Where those resistances are, where those speeds are, and what weapon it is really isn't that important.

I would also argue they're more powerful than paladins until paladins get Heal reliable, and more powerful than blackguards until blackguards get Wolf Form. By the time the other classes surpass the warrior, the warrior is still *plenty* powerful enough to facecrush most things.

In short, other classes may have a higher ceiling of power, but warriors have a much higher floor, and it's the floor that matters until the endgame.

Saru November 11, 2020 05:16

The way I think of it warriors should be weaker compared to other classes endgame than other classes for multiple reasons, but I'll spare you all the tirade :D

Muscle can only take you so far before you turn to spells.

wobbly November 11, 2020 05:18

I think in terms of reliably being able to win I'd pick warrior. Which is partially just preference and certainly the priest is a contender there. While most classes can win quicker then the warrior, I suspect the average win time is probably better on the warrior then the full casters. Most players will take a long time putting a mage through. Going for a fast turn count on a mage is risky. Its possible, but you don't have much room for mistakes.

Estie November 11, 2020 06:20

Youre all bonkers. A paladin isnt _that_ much weaker than a warrior at the start; just play him as if he was a warrior, except stay 5 levels more shallow, if you must (its very possible to get more milage out of him).

Youll have to buff up with spells before the fight, but after that is done, paladin is as good as warrior.
He will surpass warrior long before 2k heal becomes reliable - basically, after the first couple stat potions when either gets ~3+ attacks with the heavier weapons.

Lategame is no contest, as everyone agrees.


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