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-   -   suggestion: remove fuel, darkness/turn draining revisions (http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthread.php?t=7463)

Nick September 12, 2015 02:01

WARNING: Rant ahead

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carnivean (Post 104341)
Why? Because cynical curmudgeons are the only market for the game? The adventure of learning the basics is part of the fun. Once you've learned them, you get to go further into the dungeon and learn new things.

Thank you, thank you. Everyone needs to remember this whenever commenting on the game. Get it tattooed on your arm if necessary.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnonymousHero (Post 104345)
Sure, but would new players notice the absence of fuel for lights? I don't think they'd care.

No, but then new players wouldn't notice if you removed all the undead from the game either, and I don't see anyone suggesting that. I don't think removing stuff from the game because people who have been playing it for ever are over that particular feature is good game design (whatever the hell "good game design" means - I've only ever seen it used to mean "my current opinion").

Quote:

Originally Posted by mushroom patch (Post 104314)
Yeah, the dynamics of summons in angband are totally broken.

As mentioned elsewhere, the point is that all actions in angband have instantaneous effects, including, crucially, teleportation.* This removes the possibility of tactics from angband combat. If monsters can't kill you instantly, they can't kill you at all. The result is that every threatening monster has to be able to breathe on you for max, cast high powered mana storms, etc. or summon something that can.

Assuming for a moment some series of monster and player nerfs that untangled that situation, you'd then have to look at the exponential nature of summoning. The instantaneous summons combine with summoning summoners to create another broken situation.

*: Except, oddly, word of recall -- so it's clear that from the beginning developers understood the need for limits on teleportation mechanics, but somehow failed to see the importance for other types of teleportation.

Rarely in my life have I come across a set of generalisations so sweeping and so utterly baseless.

NO IT IS NOT BROKEN. THIS IS HOW ANGBAND WORKS.

If you don't like that, you should of course feel free to make your own version, or to go and play some sort of generic dungeon crawl game which suits your picture of how a generic dungeon crawl game should behave. But the way you are talking about it makes it sound as if the people who have been playing Angband for the last 20+ years have just been deluded that it's a good game.

Also, specifically, teleport is not a failsafe escape - teleporting and being killed on landing is quite a common occurrence among actual players.

If you have any actual backup for any of these statements, I'd like to hear it, but it seems to me to be just extreme claim after extreme claim, strung together with logic you could drive a truck through.

My apologies if I offend :)

AnonymousHero September 12, 2015 03:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick (Post 104348)
No, but then new players wouldn't notice if you removed all the undead from the game either, and I don't see anyone suggesting that.

Indeed not, but that is actual flavour and undead do serve (somewhat of) a purpose as being different from other types of monsters in various ways. (E.g. immunity to Nether, level draining attacks.)

Light fuel... I don't think so. Anyway, I don't care enough to keep arguing about it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick (Post 104348)
I don't think removing stuff from the game because people who have been playing it for ever are over that particular feature is good game design (whatever the hell "good game design" means - I've only ever seen it used to mean "my current opinion").

Over time, game designers have distilled some actual general overarching rules for what constitutes a good game (you can use various scales here, but they tend to correlate). We call that "good game design".

Trying to pretending that there are no such lessons to be learned from the past by characterizing it is "my current opinion" is bizarre.

Anyway, I'm done with this thread. As I say, I don't care enough about light, though I think mushroom patch's idea for light radius is a lot better than what Angband has currently.

Nick September 12, 2015 03:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnonymousHero (Post 104349)
Over time, game designers have distilled some actual general overarching rules for what constitutes a good game (you can use various scales here, but they tend to correlate). We call that "good game design".

Trying to pretending that there are no such lessons to be learned from the past by characterizing it is "my current opinion" is bizarre.

Yeah, that was probably a bit over the top. That said, it is quite common to see things classified as good or bad game design without much backup, as a kind of "proof by authority".

mushroom patch September 12, 2015 04:06

Monsters that can produce dozens of new monsters in a matter of 3 to 5 turns, most of which can kill the player in a single turn is broken. Just to make sure I've been sufficiently emphatic here, I repeat: BROKEN. But you know what's more broken than that? The fact that it doesn't matter that monsters can do that, because you can always just instantly escape. That too is broken. (BROKEN!)

Yes, I know that's how angband rolls. Angband's cool like that. That's just how it works!

You say I should go play some generic dungeon crawling game where you do things like move in combat. I did. It was pretty good. So good I would even say that if angband had combat mechanics where it made sense to move around instead of instantly teleporting, that might also be good.

As for your contention that players get killed teleporting, yes, I used to do that too. Of course, I also used to get killed by lice. Either you overestimate the danger of teleportation or you have really weird ideas about game balance, because in reasonably competent play, the odds of being forced to teleport within a level in a situation where doing so is actually dangerous are essentially zero.

debo September 12, 2015 05:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick (Post 104348)
My apologies if I offend :)

I'm offended that no one commented on my amazing puns.

AnonymousHero September 12, 2015 05:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick (Post 104350)
Yeah, that was probably a bit over the top. That said, it is quite common to see things classified as good or bad game design without much backup, as a kind of "proof by authority".

We can certainly agree on that! :)

Nick September 12, 2015 06:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by mushroom patch (Post 104351)
Monsters that can produce dozens of new monsters in a matter of 3 to 5 turns, most of which can kill the player in a single turn is broken. Just to make sure I've been sufficiently emphatic here, I repeat: BROKEN. But you know what's more broken than that? The fact that it doesn't matter that monsters can do that, because you can always just instantly escape. That too is broken. (BROKEN!)

Yes, I know that's how angband rolls. Angband's cool like that. That's just how it works!

All right then, I guess we mainly disagree on what the word broken means. And to be perfectly honest, I am probably looking at some movement of the game mechanics toward what you're suggesting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by debo (Post 104354)
I'm offended that no one commented on my amazing puns.

My profound apologies debo, your puns were so subtle I failed to notice them.

AnonymousHero September 12, 2015 06:49

(I know, I know... I promised I was done with the thread, but...)

One little additional bonus with removing fuel would be the removal of a single-purpose keystroke :).

Nick September 12, 2015 07:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnonymousHero (Post 104358)
One little additional bonus with removing fuel would be the removal of a single-purpose keystroke :).

That's the best argument yet :)

Nivra September 12, 2015 07:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by mushroom patch (Post 104336)
Yeah, but like, running out of light is usually game over if it happens even in a normal game, so it's kind of important to make sure it doesn't. The point is, though, you always can make sure it doesn't happen quite easily, unless, as in your case, you just decide not to.


Not really. in most normal games, if you run out of light mid-dungeon, you can just return to a lighted area, WoR, and go home. I guess if you run out of light at the very beginning of a level before lighting up a room, or if you run out of light in the middle of a fight in a corridor, but even in the latter case, you can usually just retreat to the previous room.

In iron man games, you die. There's a difference, and it's part of the learning curve of iron man.


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