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-   -   First rogue past level 10 I think (http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthread.php?t=9027)

Petoften August 12, 2018 14:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete Mack (Post 132757)
Ranger will never use the crossbow, either. He gets no extra shot, so an x3 bow is strictly better than an x3 crossbow. An endgame Ranger will always, always use a bow--Bard or an x5 Lothlorien longbow if he can get it.

Good to know. Why is that (this crossbow is (15,10) which is pretty nice?) It lets me free a spot if I don't need it.

Petoften August 12, 2018 14:32

The rod of detection versus two rods of treasure finding has come up again - but this time I have telepathy, changing the tradeoffs.

I'm not sure the detection has any advantage over treasure detection now other than non-sentient creatures showing up.

Monkey Face August 12, 2018 14:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Petoften (Post 132762)
Good to know. Why is that (this crossbow is (15,10) which is pretty nice?) It lets me free a spot if I don't need it.

Rangers get extra shots using a bow that they don't get using a sling or crossbow. I believe it is one extra shot per turn at level 20 and 2 extra shots at level 40.

wobbly August 12, 2018 14:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Petoften (Post 132763)
The rod of detection versus two rods of treasure finding has come up again - but this time I have telepathy, changing the tradeoffs.

I'm not sure the detection has any advantage over treasure detection now other than non-sentient creatures showing up.

Qs and golems wont show to telelathy. Don't you have an object detecting spell? You'll want detection for when you find a second. I'm on dlvl 99 with telepathy & still using detection a lot.

Pete Mack August 12, 2018 15:15

Detrct treasure is fine for you. You already have the other detection spells. That said, it may be worth storing the detection rods until you have enough, since the activation is so much better, and it saves mana and time. They also cant be broken by lightning.


That said, what you really want is clairvoyance on your light source.

Petoften August 12, 2018 16:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monkey Face (Post 132764)
Rangers get extra shots using a bow that they don't get using a sling or crossbow. I believe it is one extra shot per turn at level 20 and 2 extra shots at level 40.

Another thing I'd like the game to inform players of better. Thanks.

mrfy August 12, 2018 17:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Petoften (Post 132768)
Another thing I'd like the game to inform players of better. Thanks.

It already lists the number of shots per round in the character information screen.

Petoften August 12, 2018 18:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrfy (Post 132770)
It already lists the number of shots per round in the character information screen.

Right, but if you don't know to look for 'extra shot at this level' or with a bow, you probably aren't going to notice or plan for it.

Petoften August 12, 2018 18:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete Mack (Post 132766)
Detrct treasure is fine for you. You already have the other detection spells. That said, it may be worth storing the detection rods until you have enough, since the activation is so much better, and it saves mana and time. They also cant be broken by lightning.


That said, what you really want is clairvoyance on your light source.

Wait, I don't use spells - just the treasure detection rod and telepathy.

What is clairvoyance and how do you get it on a light source?

Do you mean upgrading from the Galadriel?

That's the best I've seen.

mrfy August 12, 2018 18:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Petoften (Post 132773)
Right, but if you don't know to look for 'extra shot at this level' or with a bow, you probably aren't going to notice or plan for it.

So it should tell you when you hit level 20 and 40 that you get an extra shot? Would that be enough? It does state when you create the character that a ranger "Gains extra shots with bow".

Petoften August 12, 2018 19:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrfy (Post 132775)
So it should tell you when you hit level 20 and 40 that you get an extra shot? Would that be enough? It does state when you create the character that a ranger "Gains extra shots with bow".

It'd be nice if it listed level bonuses for each class in char creation.

I assumed 'extra shots with bow' probably meant any ranged weapon.

Petoften August 12, 2018 19:05

I ran into 'Gorlim, Betrayer of Barahir' and decided to do a save and just see how he was.

Very difficult. He disenchanted like crazy. I had to use all 4 healing potions and speed.

He dropped two crowns with nothing but (0,3) and (0,6) - maybe they're worth a lot of gold with item selling turned on? They look useless.

Mondkalb August 12, 2018 19:19

The drops are entirely random (with some uniques giving better drops), so you never know what you will get. If you are deep enough or have a lucky roll, even simple foes like orcs could drop artifacts or other great items.

mrfy August 12, 2018 19:35

Gorlim is dangerous, you don't want to fight him hand-to-hand. He can also cause critical wounds, hit with water bolts and mana bolts. He doesn't resist fire, so that's a way to damage him, but best to hit him from far away with arrows. Shoot at him until he gets close, then phase door, and repeat.

Petoften August 12, 2018 20:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrfy (Post 132779)
Gorlim is dangerous, you don't want to fight him hand-to-hand. He can also cause critical wounds, hit with water bolts and mana bolts. He doesn't resist fire, so that's a way to damage him, but best to hit him from far away with arrows. Shoot at him until he gets close, then phase door, and repeat.

Thanks, that just wouldn't work in the layout.

Heck, there was even another sleeping unique too strong to kill not far below him.

Some of these guys move fast also. With speed I could get off a couple shots per round, but if I moved, he moved just as fast.

I'm gonna restore and skip him.

Pete Mack August 13, 2018 02:47

Then you should TO him and leave him for later. Getting your primary weapon disenchanted makes the game just that much harder. One benefit of Detect Monsters is you can avoid really dangerous monsters a very long way away, and never wake them up. Or never get too close to an undead pit. The other benefit is you wont get jumped by a high level golem or Qylthug.

Petoften August 13, 2018 03:12

It's too bad inv is so limited by space and weight. Found a *slay undead* weapon that does over double damage to undead it'd be nice to swap.

Petoften August 13, 2018 03:34

Ran into a death quasit.

He was in the wall attacking, I shot a few arrows and they didn't report anything about hitting or missing.

I tried a polymorph spell and it didn't report anything either. I tried a teleport other wand and it did nothing.

So I moved to where he wasn't in a wall and TO again -that finally worked. Walls do all that?

Pete Mack August 13, 2018 03:36

Undead are a bad choice for melee in any case, with lots of nasty side effects. Just avoid them, or use your bow. You should have a modest stash of ego ammo by now. (And you will be able to make your own once you get MB8.)

Petoften August 13, 2018 03:37

I see Eol the dark elf. Worth almost 40k exp - tells me all I need to know about not attacking him with my 82 damage arrows.

Petoften August 13, 2018 03:40

Is getting the feeling about the treasure based on number of squares travelled, or number of turns so I can just move back and forth waiting?

Petoften August 13, 2018 03:46

Lorgan, Chief of the Easterlings didn't sound so bad at 1300 xp, but 3 arrows were shrugged off (not sure if that means no damage or little), then two of my few 5,7 arrows were shrugged off also and finally he took one star damage. So I guess it means little damage. But yet another unique probably too hard, I'd have to do a lot of phase door/speed/use my good arrows etc.

Ingwe Ingweron August 13, 2018 03:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Petoften (Post 132791)
Is getting the feeling about the treasure based on number of squares travelled, or number of turns so I can just move back and forth waiting?

There are 100 "feeling squares" randomly distributed across the level, and @ must see at least 10 of them to get the treasure feeling. Standing in place and resting (or simply moving back and forth, as you suggest) will get you nowhere closer to a level feeling.

Pete Mack August 13, 2018 04:04

Yes. You are hitting a wall because your bow sucks. It is about the weakest possible bow you could have--essentially an enchanted longbow. A longbow of power would be doing about 50% more damage. An artifact bow would be doing at least 140 damage per turn, and 200 with enchanted ammo.

Petoften August 13, 2018 05:08

It's weird, the damage from my melee weapon went down from about 68 to 41, without any changes I'm aware of why (weapon stats are the same).

I found a ring of STR +5, it lowers damage even more (to 35), but does get rid of encumberance removing a current +1 penalty to speed for the bow.

Petoften August 13, 2018 05:30

Man, the levels are just nasty. Just ran into the balrog of Moria (didn't Gandalf kill him?), 48k exp, and fought a rather interesting approach - no way wanting to deal with him, he was at the corner of a long L corridor filled with mobs on both legs.

I shot them all one by one up to him, then walked up next to him and started on the next leg.

Finally he woke up and I TO'd him. Next room: Smaug the golden is back.

Ugh.

Petoften August 13, 2018 05:31

Darn, I thought it was a good bow with (16,11). Haven't seen another nearly as good.

fph August 13, 2018 07:36

Teleporting away a monster wakes it up, and a dungeon with a guaranteed dangerous monster awake and walking around is, in general, less safe than a new level. So unless you have important business to do on this level (read: major loot to pick up), you are safer if you hit the reset button by taking the closest stairs (or reading a ?recall).

Petoften August 13, 2018 12:55

I found a ring of CON +5 - not using it, but how should it be used - should I put it on when about to level up for more HP?

Petoften August 13, 2018 13:02

An amulet of trickery looks nice; but it's 119K gold and I have 11K.

Mondkalb August 13, 2018 13:13

CON rings don't affect how many HPs your char will get on leveling up. Depending on how much CON you have, it can make a huge difference in your character's total HPs though.

Amulets of trickery are great, you will eventually find one in the dungeon.

Pete Mack August 13, 2018 16:23

You very likely will want to use the CON ring later as such a fragile character. Both hobbit and ranger have bad HP. Of course, if you get 18/200 CON from other sources, that is better.

Petoften August 13, 2018 16:54

The con ring raises con from 17 to 18/40, and HP from 260 to 306. Nice, but I need the STR for encumbrance and stealth.

Petoften August 13, 2018 16:57

Are scrolls of Protection from evil worth keeping?

wobbly August 13, 2018 17:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Petoften (Post 132824)
Are scrolls of Protection from evil worth keeping?

I like them, others don't bother. If you aren't going to keep them read them off the ground. They'll last for a long time.

Petoften August 13, 2018 17:39

Any idea why my melee damage dropped a lot?

I just found the sword Aeglin, but not worth keeping.

Petoften August 13, 2018 17:43

Just found the short bow of Amras! From 82 arrow damage to 160.

Still think I need to stay away from things like ethereal dragon though.

Petoften August 13, 2018 17:49

Also found scythe 'Avavir'. Better melee damage but no telepathy of course.

Petoften August 13, 2018 17:52

Yikes. Master Mystic, tried to sneak by, in 2 turns he summoned 12 monsters.

A little later 30 are showing on the screen at once.

Mondkalb August 13, 2018 18:03

Avoid! Besides his summons, he will pummel you to death! And even more to avoid: Grand Master Mystic.

Petoften August 14, 2018 01:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mondkalb (Post 132832)
Avoid! Besides his summons, he will pummel you to death! And even more to avoid: Grand Master Mystic.

I left the level.

As soon as I did, Harowen the black hand... Nearby, Ji Indur Dawndeath

There's a vault next to him with almost anything - insects, umber hulks, worms, griffons, doombats...

Even with the new bow...

Petoften August 14, 2018 01:46

Getting to be too much (dlvl 53). Same level as above, Lorgan chief of the easterlings summoned me repeatedly, phase doored to a room of vrocks that each would take a long time to kill, phase door some more and an ethereal drake attacked, finally a teleported and landed next to Harowen the black hand...

Petoften August 14, 2018 01:47

Back in town - staff of speed worth buying/carrying? Only a few scrolls left.

Petoften August 14, 2018 01:48

Now my HP have gone down from 260 to 244. Who knows.

Petoften August 14, 2018 03:49

It's nice having telepathy and regeneration.

I'm getting them now from weapon and amulet, respectively.

I have an amulet of telepathy I could use, but lose regeneration, to use a higher damage weapon; or get even lower damage with a regen weapon.

Hm.

Petoften August 14, 2018 04:09

I found two scrolls, read one, it's *enchant weapon* - used it on the bow, it didn't work. Should I just use and waste the other also?

wobbly August 14, 2018 07:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Petoften (Post 132842)
I found two scrolls, read one, it's *enchant weapon* - used it on the bow, it didn't work. Should I just use and waste the other also?

It works less the higher the plus. Use it for arrows, you'll need to press | to select the quiver

Petoften August 14, 2018 07:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by wobbly (Post 132843)
It works less the higher the plus. Use it for arrows, you'll need to press | to select the quiver

Didn't know you could do that.

Well, they went from 40 0,0 to 2,2.

Petoften August 14, 2018 07:56

How can I tell what is immune to polymorph? For example I see an elder vampire.

Petoften August 14, 2018 08:36

Tried the first recharge spell, on a wand of life draining (did 150 damage I think). Destroyed it. Not sure how useful it was...

Petoften August 14, 2018 10:52

The recharge spell seems risky - 2 of the 3 times I first tried it it destroyed the wand.

Adam August 14, 2018 11:04

There are more recharge spells, I think the MB3 Lesser Recharging has higher chance to blow up the staff/wand than the scroll which you can buy.
Also the higher level the wand, the higher is the chance of being destroyed.

Pete Mack August 14, 2018 19:56

Yes. Lesser recharging only works on very low level items like staff of light. Use scroll or, better, recharge II spell in MB8. (MB8 is awesome for ranger and rogue, and very good for mage.)

Petoften August 15, 2018 00:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete Mack (Post 132864)
Yes. Lesser recharging only works on very low level items like staff of light. Use scroll or, better, recharge II spell in MB8. (MB8 is awesome for ranger and rogue, and very good for mage.)

What is MB8? Guess that was a mistake getting rid of the scrolls of recharge when I got the spell. Something else the game didn't make clear.

Petoften August 15, 2018 00:03

Another tradoff - found armor of Rohirrim which gives 50 more armor, 2 str and dex; compare to current with 3 stealth. But the stealth seems more useful.

Petoften August 15, 2018 00:58

Dungeon level 58, found gauntlets 'Paurnen' - but they seem useless, Racid, feather falling, 5d8 acid bolt.

Petoften August 15, 2018 01:01

Shelob, spider of darkness - 47k exp, don't expect that'd be feasible.

Petoften August 15, 2018 01:18

Finally a unique to try, Itangast the fire drake. Got him, with speed/slow and too many of my best arrows.

Dropped halberd 'Osondir' which doesn't look too useful, mainly good damage especially against undead and not resistant to fire, but as a ranger...

And a 'blade of chaos', minor damage upgrade and Rchaos, which is a new resist, but how useful?

Pete Mack August 15, 2018 01:23

Shelob isn't that tough. Beathes poison for 800 (has ~3000 HP, comparable to a Wyrm.) Big problem is aummons of spiders, which get in the way of archery attacks. Once you get a good enough bow, and Rune of Protection, you can knock of monsters like her with ease.

Petoften August 15, 2018 05:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete Mack (Post 132876)
Shelob isn't that tough. Beathes poison for 800 (has ~3000 HP, comparable to a Wyrm.) Big problem is aummons of spiders, which get in the way of archery attacks. Once you get a good enough bow, and Rune of Protection, you can knock of monsters like her with ease.

Sounds good. I tend to run out of arrows also. Too bad you can't get more with a spell.

Petoften August 15, 2018 08:12

Unique Aduphenal the dropped AC 8 mithril gauntlets...

Petoften August 15, 2018 10:14

How important is that RChaos? Worth carrying the weapon with it for swap?

Petoften August 15, 2018 10:36

I read an unknown scroll and it's asking me to enter the first letter of a monster to banish.

This sounds like a good thing. Two questions.

1. If I hit escape, will it waste the scroll or can I use it later?

2. If I need to use it now, any recommendations what to banish?

Mondkalb August 15, 2018 10:41

Hit escape and save it for later.

Scrolls of Banishment and Mass Banishment are very useful (the latter to get rid of summons in the final battle).
Be aware though, that your character will loose some hitpoints per banished monster. If your char is at low health and you banish, say a room full of dragons, they could die in the outcome.

It is useful to get rid of vortices/hounds who would breath at you or shriekers in a vault, or very dangerous monsters also.

Rchaos is of limited use against some monsters.

Sky August 15, 2018 10:43

rChaos protects you from the effects of hallucination. Chaos is also a rather nasty breath so later on you will need it (if you see a jabberwock just run away).
rDis protects your gear from getting disenchanted.
rSound used to protect against stunning, now you only need it against the Titans (Kronos i think breathes heavy sound damage).
rShards diminishes the heavy bleeding effect of shard damage.
rNether allows a saving throw against loss of XP for nether attacks.
rPois prevents poison per-turn damage. Many mobs have strong poison breaths.
rLite and rDark prevent blindness as a side effect of their attacks but not magic blindness, not sure if a saving throw is involved.
rNexus prevents the teleportation/phase/telelevel/scramble effects of nexus breaths.

There is no defence against gravity. Against time, you can save if you have HLife but still take damage. Against plasma you can avoid the stun with pStun.
Gravity,Plasma and Time are all seriously dangerous, worth avoiding the mob alltogether.

Petoften August 15, 2018 14:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mondkalb (Post 132884)
Hit escape and save it for later.

OK thanks - it kept it. When and what on would you suggest using it?

Petoften August 15, 2018 15:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sky (Post 132886)
rChaos protects you from the effects of hallucination.

Ah, that'd be convenient. Some recent things cause it, and it made it quite hard to target them to kill.

Guess I should probably keep it to swap for those things, though I'm not sure what does it until they do it.

Petoften August 15, 2018 15:02

Rod of probing, not worth keeping?

wobbly August 15, 2018 16:49

Its ok if you don't have full monster memory. Useless if you do. There's a file you copy to have it. Otherwise it's what you've seen since you installed the game.

Banish is either: An emergency & you want everything of a letter gone (doesn't work for uniques) or getting rid of annoying Qs, Zs, drujs or removing a tricky vault monster.

Sky August 15, 2018 22:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Petoften (Post 132893)
Rod of probing, not worth keeping?

Its generally considered acceptable to cheat a full "monster memory" file.

Back in the olden days, when Angband tried every trick to kill you, you would know nothing about mobs, if not things you experienced already. So you would not know that a Jabberwock breathes Chaos unless one did that to you (probably killing you).

Monster memory stayed when you started a new character, so eventually if you kept playing all your characters would have full knowledge of previous monsters.

The Rod Of Probing helped speed up this process, by telling you every detail about a mob, even if you dont wake it up and suffer all its attacks.

So once upon a time, yeah, Probing was a useful tool, for new players. Nowadays, not so much.





You should stash at home the following:
1. Potions of *Healing*
2. Potions of Life
3. Scrolls of Banishment
4. Scrolls of Mass Banishment

Mages dont need 3 and 4 because they can cast those spells. These items are otherwise instrumental in your last fight with Morgoth.

Ingwe Ingweron August 16, 2018 00:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sky (Post 132903)
The Rod Of Probing helped speed up this process, by telling you every detail about a mob, even if you dont wake it up and suffer all its attacks.

So once upon a time, yeah, Probing was a useful tool, for new players. Nowadays, not so much.

Yeah, until Nick made it so monster.txt could be copied and renamed to lore.txt, with every new version of the game (that broke savefile compatability), I would use probing, and a list of all uniques and monsters, slowly checking them off the list. The next @ would try to then leave uniques alive that hadn't been fully identified until getting probing, then go back and search for them, or farm the unpronouncable Q for them, and go back to the town and descend probing every unidentified regular monster. After three or four iterations I would again have a complete knowledge file. So, very, very, glad Nick made that painstaking process unnecessary!

Petoften August 16, 2018 08:22

Found 4 scrolls of recharging - should I use them on the 2 wands of teleport other or is it too dangerous, just use one when they run out?

wobbly August 16, 2018 11:52

I'd say risky with only 2 (as 1 could go to electric breathe) & riskier to let go below 3 charges. It's really a matter of opinion. I think the dungeon has more devices then I have pack space.

Pete Mack August 16, 2018 12:26

Wait til you are down to 1 charge (or zero), then use 1 scroll. If a wand breaks, use the other. Otherwise save it til you have to use it again. Your odds of success are much lower if you try to charge an already charged wand. Another technique is to put all the wands on the floor ij a line, then recharge them one at a time as you walk over them. This is a particularly useful technique for damage wands, however, but less useful for TO.

Petoften August 16, 2018 17:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete Mack (Post 132918)
Your odds of success are much lower if you try to charge an already charged wand.

Someone posted that the game was changed so that the safety is the same however many charges it has?

Petoften August 16, 2018 18:02

Thinking of dropping a wand of dragon's breath - I've been dropping damage wands. They're handy sometimes, but...

wobbly August 16, 2018 19:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Petoften (Post 132923)
Someone posted that the game was changed so that the safety is the same however many charges it has?

Code says charge_per_item

Petoften August 17, 2018 00:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by wobbly (Post 132931)
Code says charge_per_item

What does that mean about the odds of it getting destroyed?

Petoften August 17, 2018 07:07

Just noticed the scythe has an activation of recall, so I can put the rod of recall in storage - though the scythe recharge is a long 220 turns instead of 66.

Adam August 17, 2018 08:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Petoften (Post 132938)
Just noticed the scythe has an activation of recall, so I can put the rod of recall in storage - though the scythe recharge is a long 220 turns instead of 66.

You can always use a scroll for going down and the activation for coming back. You can even carry 2-3 scrolls for cases when you want to cancel a recall and drop them when you need the space (though activating a weapon by mistake is not a usual thing).

wobbly August 17, 2018 08:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Petoften (Post 132935)
What does that mean about the odds of it getting destroyed?

It means divide the no. of charges by no. of wands for the calculation. 2 wands, 1 charge = 0 charges, 2 wands, 2 charges = 1 charge etc. It's identical to dropping all but 1 wand on the ground before charging.

Petoften August 17, 2018 23:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by wobbly (Post 132940)
It means divide the no. of charges by no. of wands for the calculation. 2 wands, 1 charge = 0 charges, 2 wands, 2 charges = 1 charge etc. It's identical to dropping all but 1 wand on the ground before charging.

OK - but the question was, is there more danger of the wand being destroyed if it has more charges?

Ingwe Ingweron August 18, 2018 04:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Petoften (Post 132947)
OK - but the question was, is there more danger of the wand being destroyed if it has more charges?

YES!!! The lowest risk is a stack of wands/staves, fully-depleted to zero charges. Some advocate dropping and charging each singly, however, my understanding is that there is less risk in a stack.

Petoften August 18, 2018 06:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ingwe Ingweron (Post 132951)
YES!!! The lowest risk is a stack of wands/staves, fully-depleted to zero charges. Some advocate dropping and charging each singly, however, my understanding is that there is less risk in a stack.

Thanks. Unfortunately that's yet another inv space for some recharge scrolls.

Pete Mack August 18, 2018 11:36

You can leave the scrolls at home and recharge on return. Eventually you will get Tenser's Transformations, the ultimate Ranger/Rogue spellbook. (Though ranger does get *destruction* from Keleks's.)

Petoften August 18, 2018 13:12

Found a rod of teleport other (27 turn recharge), so can use that or the wands.

Also found a weapon with 2 stealth and about 97 damage (instead of 57) that has regen - so I could replace the regen amulet with telepathy amulet. Hm.

Seems like an improvement?

2 more stealth, I still aggro things.

Pete Mack August 18, 2018 13:29

Stealth is useless with aggravation. What are you you using that has aggro, anyway? It will probably kill you.

Petoften August 18, 2018 18:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete Mack (Post 132957)
Stealth is useless with aggravation. What are you you using that has aggro, anyway? It will probably kill you.

Nothing - what I meant was, that my current stealth still has some monsters go aggro, so more stealth might help.

Pete Mack August 18, 2018 18:38

Then say that, please. Aggravation is something very specific. Some monsters will always wake up unless you have legendary stealth, which is unlikely except for level 40+ rogues. (It is a very different kind of zero-fail.)

Petoften August 18, 2018 20:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete Mack (Post 132964)
Then say that, please. Aggravation is something very specific. Some monsters will always wake up unless you have legendary stealth, which is unlikely except for level 40+ rogues. (It is a very different kind of zero-fail.)

Words can have multiple meanings/contexts - it's just a miscommunication. Aggro is both a verb of what the monster does, and an item curse.

First I ever heard of legendary stealth - the current choice is just weighing the extra 2 stealth.


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