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-   -   suggestion: remove fuel, darkness/turn draining revisions (http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthread.php?t=7463)

Ingwe Ingweron September 12, 2015 11:41

So, while we're at it should we remove food too? Substitute the word "food" for "light" in these posts and pretty much the same logic applies.

Personally, I don't think we should remove light, or food, for that matter.

Oh, these line drawing problems. Slippery slopes. But for Adam. And lot's of other mixed metaphors. :)

AnonymousHero September 12, 2015 12:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ingwe Ingweron (Post 104361)
So, while we're at it should we remove food too? Substitute the word "food" for "light" in these posts and pretty much the same logic applies.

Well, I certainly wouldn't object to removing food, but...

Wasn't there a change to the rate of food consumption which makes it essentially irrelevant once you get Slow Digestion? Or was that reverted?

mushroom patch September 12, 2015 12:08

No one said remove light. Removing fuel and removing light are separate and unrelated issues.

And yes, food should also be removed, as I mentioned in the OP. Dying from starvation is, like running out of light, not really possible in reasonably competent play. Food only wastes inventory slots and pesters you about eating about ten times per game. There's no value added there.

Ingwe Ingweron September 12, 2015 12:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnonymousHero (Post 104362)
Well, I certainly wouldn't object to removing food, but...

Wasn't there a change to the rate of food consumption which makes it essentially irrelevant once you get Slow Digestion? Or was that reverted?

You are correct. Of course, light is irrelevant once you get the Phial, Star, Arkenstone, great lanterns, weapons that emit light, etc.

Not sure if your argument was that making food less of a problem argued for keeping the mechanic, or getting rid of it entirely. Whichever it was, light doesn't seem any different.

Ingwe Ingweron September 12, 2015 12:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by mushroom patch (Post 104363)
No one said remove light. Removing fuel and removing light are separate and unrelated issues.

And yes, food should also be removed, as I mentioned in the OP. Dying from starvation is, like running out of light, not really possible in reasonably competent play. Food only wastes inventory slots and pesters you about eating about ten times per game. There's no value added there.

One of the challenges of the game is supposed to be inventory management. Food and light are part of that. Make an infinite pack, make an infinite home, give me unlimited health, cheat death, make it easy. Why play the game at all?

I've had @'s die of starvation or lack of light. I've also had @'s survive those situations and they've been some of the most entertaining and memorable problems overcome, even though they are so basic.

For a truly entertaining example of a food dilemma, check out one of Fizzix's "Let's Play Angband" series (I don't remember which one). He was playing a priest and was quickly starving. Desperately, quaffing potions to stay alive. And the whole time had MB2 in his pack and could have cast a Satisfy Hunger prayer at anytime! :)

mushroom patch September 12, 2015 12:30

It's weird how when supporters of fuel and food come at you with anecdotes about how integral the two are to angband gameplay, you get stories of games where someone chose to run out of fuel or chose to starve by not using or picking up items that were available to them. I guess this is what people mean when they say angband lets the player do what they want. (???)

I would be totally cool with reducing the number of inventory slots available by 1 after removing food.

edit: re: posts upthread about food being irrelevant in certain situations, in fact, food is irrelevant in all situations. A competently played game, played to win takes between 50k and 100k turns (this is being generous on the high end). That's between 10 and 20 rations of food, if the information I'm looking at is accurate. You can buy that in town in the first 100 turns of any game. But even if you don't, the amount of food you find on the ground exceeds that total many times over.

Carnivean September 12, 2015 13:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by mushroom patch (Post 104366)
A competently played game, played to win takes between 50k and 100k turns (this is being generous on the high end).

You are occupying a different realm to the average player. Clearly you've superseded this game. You should try a game that doesn't have summoning, escapes, food, fuel or any of the other basics of Angband.

I suggest chess or go.

mushroom patch September 12, 2015 14:03

I don't get it. Am I to infer from your sarcasm that you believe no one can transcend the depths of angband?

I can assure you, no matter how hard it is for you to believe, angband is quite easy by the standards of roguelikes and it's because the game does not have enough tactical depth. It's too easy to control what happens. That's just a fact.

Carnivean September 12, 2015 14:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by mushroom patch (Post 104368)
I don't get it. Am I to infer from your sarcasm that you believe no one can transcend the depths of angband?

No, you may not. What I am saying is that the game you want isn't Angband. If it is a roguelike, then you should probably start your own variant, because what you want is so far from Angband that it would be a completely different game.

My recommendations are because you are so minimalist that I can't imagine you playing a game other than the purest tactical/strategic games.

Philip September 12, 2015 14:32

I agree with mushroom patch that summoning is out of control - summoning a monster that is somewhat weaker than the summoner, but still is a larger threat than just the one turn from the summoner is great, because it forces the player to react in some way (assess threat, ignore, reposition to avoid, kill, remove), summoning lots is bad because it forces the player to react in variations of the same way (assess threat, then ignore or remove).

On the food/light debate. I don't see why "no one who is experienced and/or competent dies of this" is a valid argument. Things don't need to kill you to justify continuing to exist. Food and light are interesting parts of the game, and do have an effect. Do you risk running out of food or light in the dungeon to get those two slots? Admittedly, recall being easy to acquire screws with that. I would be in favor of making food and light more interesting, perhaps by nerfing recall somehow. If you had no clue how long the dive would be taking you it could be pretty interesting - perhaps make portals to the surface appear randomly in the dungeon?

Is there an actual reason to assume competent play? I play idiotically all the time, and learning what not to do is a great part of the game.


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