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fizzix April 10, 2018 15:52

I'm not entirely convinced that it's correct that the wand/rod versions of spells do more damage than the spell version. They're certainly more efficient with regard to mana (although you can lose them to recharging.) The biggest downside to rods/wands is that they take up an inventory slot.

I think it might be interesting for the spells in Raals to scale less with level and do more flat damage.

Part of the problem is that uniques have so many more hitpoints than other monsters, so it's difficult for a mage to kill them with a limited pool.

I think there's a lot of paths forward on this. Maybe a first step would be bumping up the damage of stuff like explosion and fireball, or even reducing the mana cost further.

Derakon April 10, 2018 20:14

I know there are players that want the mage to be the "I don't need to worry about weapons/consumables because I have a spell for every occasion" class, but is that really the direction we want to go in? If spells are more powerful than devices, then some of the tactics of playing a mage go away -- you just throw spells at things until they die. I mean, I guess you can make the spells so much more expensive than devices that the mage can't feasibly use spells and must supplement with devices, but that feels like it accomplishes the same effect that the boosted devices currently do, just in a more painful way.

In my opinion the guiding principle for the mage should be that they have to survive by being smart and using the best tool for the job. Sometimes that should be a spell, sometimes a wand, sometimes a bow or a sword. Ideally all of these would be competitive in different circumstances. Where we run into trouble is if one of those is dominant over the others.

fizzix April 11, 2018 16:36

I think right now it's hard to find a good use for most of the spells in Raals, or damage spells in general. Part of this is due to the nonlinear nature of SP. When you find Raals you don't have enough mana to cast the spells regularly and reliably. By the time you have the SP, those spells are outclassed by other options. I guess in the grand scheme I'd be ok with a mage using spells for weaker enemies and devices for uniques and tougher enemies. Right now devices are the most damaging and the most efficient (with cheap and accessible recharging).

I also admit that your description of a "mage" aligns more with my description of a "rogue".

Estie April 11, 2018 17:40

I dont see why there shouldnt be a class whos best option to kill monsters are spells.

Sphara April 11, 2018 19:00

Mage certainly has enough firepower to kill everything without the wands. The problem reaching the endgame is finding Kelek and I believe most mages do find it before lvl99. Just based on that premise, I don't understand why mages are the strongest class with devices.

Angband lategame spells/prayers are massively powerful but some of them makes me think.. just why?? Why would you have enchantment spells that encourage to scummy behavior? I mean it's not scummy if it is in the design but jesus christ when I cast enchant/fail/rest/cast enchant on my weapons and armour I really did think I should just go with the current equipment.

Recharging spell falls into this same category. I have never ever ran outta charges of my main wands and staves reaching the endgame. Never tried to kill M with annihilation wand but if that is the most efficient way, why does this possibility even exist? Chaos strike spell kills Morgy so easy that only comparable easiness could be lvl50 ranger with HMight arrows and that scummy shooting possibility the game allows (and that Ingwe demonstrated for me) :)

Moving Pictures April 12, 2018 04:29

Mordy missing
 
Am I clueless, or has Mordenkainen's Escapes been stripped from v4? I've been hunting for it,and then went into autoignore setup and only eight spellbooks listed? Eh?

fizzix April 12, 2018 04:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moving Pictures (Post 129057)
Am I clueless, or has Mordenkainen's Escapes been stripped from v4? I've been hunting for it,and then went into autoignore setup and only eight spellbooks listed? Eh?

If you haven't seen it anywhere ever, it won't show up on the autoignore list.

Grotug April 12, 2018 10:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moving Pictures (Post 129057)
Am I clueless, or has Mordenkainen's Escapes been stripped from v4? I've been hunting for it,and then went into autoignore setup and only eight spellbooks listed? Eh?

Once again, this applies:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Grotug (Post 129039)
Because RNG don't care a teet about giving you what you need.


Nick April 13, 2018 07:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sphara (Post 129053)
Mage certainly has enough firepower to kill everything without the wands. The problem reaching the endgame is finding Kelek and I believe most mages do find it before lvl99. Just based on that premise, I don't understand why mages are the strongest class with devices.

Angband lategame spells/prayers are massively powerful but some of them makes me think.. just why?? Why would you have enchantment spells that encourage to scummy behavior? I mean it's not scummy if it is in the design but jesus christ when I cast enchant/fail/rest/cast enchant on my weapons and armour I really did think I should just go with the current equipment.

Recharging spell falls into this same category. I have never ever ran outta charges of my main wands and staves reaching the endgame. Never tried to kill M with annihilation wand but if that is the most efficient way, why does this possibility even exist? Chaos strike spell kills Morgy so easy that only comparable easiness could be lvl50 ranger with HMight arrows and that scummy shooting possibility the game allows (and that Ingwe demonstrated for me) :)

Given I'm currently going through a rework of classes, what do people think about having two arcane classes, one with powerful spells and one which primarily uses devices, and gets spells to enhance that?

Carnivean April 13, 2018 08:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick (Post 129074)
Given I'm currently going through a rework of classes, what do people think about having two arcane classes, one with powerful spells and one which primarily uses devices, and gets spells to enhance that?

It would depend on the implementation, but I would be for it. When I play mages I have always ignored devices.


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