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Old April 15, 2018, 15:16   #26
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 303
Quirk is on a distinguished road
Originally Posted by ripforareason View Post
I saw in one of the earlier threads that you had wanted to get rid of the "smithing kit" strategy. I think this would be good too, since juggling items kind of sucks. Maybe gloves of the forge and war hammers of smithing could be removed entirely? Even as smithed artifacts they're sort of lame, since you're in practice just burning a forge for 3 points of smithing and Masterpiece in most cases. You would have to adjust the difficulty down a bit though, since I think most people's first item on a smither is in many cases Gloves of the Forge <+2>. Another option would be to let people put grace on generic crowns and feanorian lamps and bring back Song of Aule. I'm not sure if it wouldn't be a bit overpowered in the endgame with smithing singer types, as I have never played one. It could lead to smithers being a bit overpowered compared to what the design goal seems to be (less U-shaped power curve), but it would get rid of the item juggling problem, since most things you'd be forging to boost your smithing are items you might like to wear anyway. Plus if you are going all in on smithing you are doing so to make cool items anyway.

Honestly just having Alchemy and not having to juggle a helm and 2 crowns (Loremaster + Grace) is a vast improvement over normal Sil. Replacing Gloves of the Forge and war hammers of smithing with points of grace and song of aule would be a much nicer experience. I always post about feanorian lamps of grace when writing about smithing but it really is a hassle to carry a lesser jewel just for 1 point of smithing, drop my feanorian lamp to provide lighting in the forge room, etc.
I think there are a couple of things that need teased out here, both relating to smithing +Grace items.
1) If you're a songsmith, +Grace items are extremely valuable.
2) If you're not a songsmith, +Grace items actually probably aren't what you would wear anyway; pretty much every other stat is more useful if you're primarily melee focused.

So if I drop the +Smithing items, +Grace items become the default smithing kit; for the melee smith, they're not great - I note you weren't actually wearing any +Grace gear at the end of your run) - but for the songsmith they're highly prized. If I take away +Smithing and make +Grace items easier to craft, it gives songsmiths even more power when they're already very strong (the first Morgoth kill was a songsmith), and doesn't solve the smithing kit issue. If I take away both +Smithing and +Grace, singers suffer substantially from the inability to increase their Voice pool.

My final conclusion was that having Smithing rely on Grace was a large part of the problem, but decoupling it from Grace is awkward, as Grace then affects only 3 skill trees instead of 4. Adding a whole new Grace-based tree and having Smithing be its own thing might be a solution, but this would require a lot of testing and would push the first release back some way.

Alchemy might nudge up the tree one slot, since there's been a fair bit of "it's overpowered!" feedback. I confess I find it too nice not to take on pretty much every character now. I find myself wondering if it would be better to identify items based on raw Perception vs typical item depth or something instead, but this also would be a big change as I'm trying to stabilise for an official release.

How did you find Song of Challenge, Anticipate and Vengeance?
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