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Old December 16, 2017, 00:29   #6
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 331
Quirk is on a distinguished road
Originally Posted by taptap View Post
What is your opinion on lore master for singers? Does it overall gain xp? 60k is pretty high for a pacifist.

If you are not taking lore master, I would prefer Doriath for singers. You start just a few hundred xp shy of Song of Lorien.
I don't think Lore Master necessarily gains XP overall, unless you count not having to invest in Will to use-id potions and herbs, but it's probably pretty close to break-even in the long run. It does enhance survivability a lot; anything that use-ids based on combat is hard to identify otherwise (or if it has wrath or attracts shadows finding out can be very bad), you get more of the useful potions and herbs, you don't accidentally test an earthquake staff... it gives you a lot that's useful.

At the point I generally get Lorien (about 550' this run) it's not quite good enough initially to be able to reliably sleep Sulrauko and werewolves before they spot me, even with the advance warning of Listen. It would presumably be stronger to have it earlier, and Doriath can in fact start with Lorien if they sink everything into Song, but with such low stealth you're likely to wake stuff up again very easily as you pass unless you're singing Silence (which also drains your Voice). Without Keen Senses/Listen also you are more likely to run into enemies at a distance you can't easily escape. I think you probably die to different things: you're probably better against things moving around rapidly and randomly, but if you're facing sustained pressure and you run out of Voice you won't have many tools left.

I found starting with Listen/low stealth harder than high stealth/Keen Senses and build to Listen. I kept finding that I'd descend with Listen and find too many enemies around me to evade with my current stealth - which would put me into escape mode right away, and once away from the stairs, if enemies did enter a corridor behind me and the route out of the room ahead was blocked, things were liable to get messy very fast if they spotted me. I don't think the amount I put in stealth early is necessarily optimal, it's probably better to balance investment in Song of Silence with Stealth, but I found it made the tricky early levels very much easier once I learned to avoid wolves and birds and shut doors (less for noise purposes, more for blocking the early wolves).

I generally had Listen by the time I entered warg and shadow depth, but I didn't see shadows before they crept up on me. This is largely because when they're "visible" with Listen or Keen Senses, they're invisible. Sprinting might help. Wargs I kept a very close eye on, but there is an element of luck; if they get your scent while you're distant from the stair, or while they're between you and the only known stair, survival is hard. Again I can believe Sprinting could help. There are many places where being discovered with or without Sprinting makes little difference though, and Sprinting costs 4300 XP, which feels hard to swing in the early game. I haven't given Sprinting a fair try though since my goal was to do without Evasion or Melee.

An option I tried a few times when desperate was Song of Elbereth, but as I found Song of Sharpness was always necessary, the cost of that extra addition in the Song tree was too much for me to ever be happy taking it, and when things didn't flee the situation usually turned fatal.
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