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Old January 22, 2011, 12:53   #10
Timo Pietilš
Join Date: Apr 2007
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Originally Posted by Magnate View Post
You and Eddie don't seem to understand that the Thorin being "essential" is a *problem*. It definitely needs weakening. I agree that the +4 CON is necessary for many characters, but should it really come with rchaos, rsound and iAcid on a very easy to find low level artifact? It's nonsense, and always has been.
I agree that needing that much CON is problem, but Thorin being strong item is not the cause of that problem. Reason why everyone uses it is that it is the only useful item in that slot that gives CON (and STR) bonuses. Even if you take out IMM_ACID, RES_SOUND and RES_CHAOS, it would still be used. Even if you give it penalties it would be used. There is no other choice.

Problem is that it has no competition. Give it competition. Something like Dwarven shield with random high resist and like +2/+3 STR and CON with rConf would be no-brainer to anyone lacking rConf (or maybe even nexus or blindness) even with Thorin. Thorin would then be reduced as swap-item to give IMM_ACID when needed. Or not, if you already have all your gear ignore acid. Acid is the weakest of basic4, with just resist acid you get max 266 points of damage from monster that breathes it full strength, and monsters that do breathe acid at any significant amount are rare indeed (GWoMColors breathes for about 1470, only Ancalagon breathes acid full strenght). Double-resist and you hardly get any damage at all, which means your gear is also saved.

Constitution just is too valuable. Only thing that goes over it is speed, which is another reason we have this problem, because any source of speed usually doesn't have CON bonus (Gondor, Thror and Sting are exceptions), and major source is rings, which means one valuable slot less to get CON. Maybe change in entire HP concept to reduce value of CON and increase value of clvl is in order.

If you find Thorin too powerful as low level item then make it deeper. There is no need to make it weaker.

Originally Posted by Magnate View Post
Sting isn't weak. The way +dam works at the moment it's hugely powerful. But if there's any artifact that gets to retain +2 blows, it should be Sting.
That depends where you compare it to. Sting is low-damage weapon, what makes it powerful is the +2 it also gives for combat stats which might actually make it +3 blows weapon if stats are right, and speed it has. For a weapon you can have pretty much any high-dice extra blows weapon and get it beaten. Especially with off-weapon brands. For out of curiosity I gave a debug char pretty normal set of gear for mid/late-game including RoDam +11, Elessar and Cambeleg and just long sword of extra attacks (2d5) (+10,+15) (+2) was enough to clearly beat Sting. Only that speed bonus gives it advantage if it is nearby some breakpoint (+8/9 or +18/19). Something like Haradekket beats it easily, and medium-rarity weapons like Til-i-Arc or Totila are about in par with the damage (with warrior).

Maybe Sting isn't weak, but it definitely is weak enough that it doesn't need any further weakening.
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