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Old May 31, 2012, 00:14   #7
Magnate
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
I simply meant the +prowess bonus on the ammo. I recognize that currently this is summed with the bonus on the bow to get a total bonus; my thought was that by multiplying them instead we could get a smoother damage curve for ammunition, slightly less reliant on getting access to better ammo types. I suppose alternately we could do away with finesse and prowess bonuses on ammo altogether. Make their only modifiers be slays and dice manipulation. Then we wouldn't have to deal with summing modifiers any more, while frankly I think ammo would become more interesting.
Not yet sure what I think about this. I think consistency is important (see below on your flipping point), and I think adding feels more intuitive to me than multiplying. I haven't thought through the range of numbers each would provide, or why ammo would be more interesting without plusses.
Quote:
So then we're assuming that anyone, no matter how noodly their arms are, can use a longbow with a 60-pound draw weight? We already have the concept of weapons that are too heavy to use effectively; why not extend that to bows as well? Are you worried about a double whammy, i.e. characters who cannot fight at all because their STR is too low?
No, I just don't like discontinuities. I don't mind STR 11 resulting in lower damage output than STR 12, but the combination of a cliff-edge there and NO difference between 11, 10, 9 ... down to 3 (because they're all too low to use the weapon) feels totally wrong.

(I was thinking about this with melee weapons too - it gnaws at me that weight is now not relevant at all, barring the min STR cliff-edge. I think the simplest solution is for me to make weapon weights proportional (not necessarily linearly) to heft.)

So my thinking is that lower STR means progressively fewer shots, i.e. using prowess in the shots calc. But I see your point that actually for bows the shots should be less effective, not fewer - so maybe we don't need the flip for bows, and stick with prowess for the damage mult, flipping only for xbows. So really weak characters will do less damage with their shots.
Quote:
The main issue I have with using prowess to determine shot speed is that it inverts the user's expectations for what (+X, +Y) means. Normally X modifies your speed and Y modifies your damage, but that would be backwards for bows. Why can't we hide the flip from the user? That is, leave X as the speed-modifier, but secretly it's prowess; leave Y as the damage modifier, but secretly it's finesse. This does amount to lying to the user, and might make things a bit hairy code-wise, but at the moment I think it's better that making the display confusing.
I hadn't thought of this, and I see the problem. Yes, I think secret flipping is fine - we explain it clearly in the docs, and intuitively it will work fine - the first number affects your blows/shots, and the second affects your damage. The fact that for crossbows it's prow/fin and for everything else it's fin/prow is not a problem.
Quote:
Bows should require the most skill to use, which means that finesse and prowess need to show up the most often in the equations.
Yes, I see this - but in fact I think slings and bows can safely use the same logic - finesse for loading and aiming, and prowess for putting power behind the shot. So essentially the same model as melee combat, and with ammo dice for arrows being substantially better than for slings. Draw of slings would also be lower than for bows, because they won't ever do quite as much damage (though there's no real reason they couldn't fire as often).

So I think the only anomaly I really want is that fin/prow are reversed for xbows, where prowess determines how quickly you can crank the mechanism and fire. Finesse could determine how well you can place the bolt - but since that duplicates its aiming function (to-hit), we could dispense with that and just have xbows do flat damage - i.e. instead of the 'draw' being a number between 0 and 1 used as a fraction of your own prowess score, like other weapons, it's an absolute value (e.g. 120, 400, whatever) which is then used in the same equation: dice roll * this value (pace whatever happens with ammo prowess).

This means that extremely weak characters will still do decent damage with hxbows but will not fire them often, while warriors and rangers will still have meaningful choices of launcher depending on what they find.
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