Angband.oook.cz
Angband.oook.cz
AboutDownloadVariantsLadderForumCompetitionSpoilersComicScreenshotsFunniesLinks

Go Back   Angband Forums > Angband > Vanilla

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old April 1, 2012, 13:28   #1
fizzix
Prophet
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Madison, Wisconsin, US
Posts: 2,598
fizzix is on a distinguished road
3.4, 64x64 tiles and MAX_SIGHT/MAX_RANGE

The major addition to 3.4 has been Shockbolt's 64x64 tiles. However, 64x64 tiles, as pretty as they are, make for some gameplay difficulties. Specifically, if you have 1024 pixel range (a typical vertical range for a good monitor) then you can only show 16 squares of 64 pixel height. That leaves a lot of stuff offscreen. If you use the squished set of 32x32 pixels you can see 15 squares in either direction, so that's a little more reasonable. However in both cases you can't see as far as the MAX_SIGHT which is how far @ can see, or MAX_RANGE which is how far away Kavlax needs to be to gravity breath you to oblivion.

We currently have MAX_SIGHT and MAX_RANGE both at 20, which is a bit excessive. It didn't used to be 20, it used to be 16 (i think) and was changed to 20 because you could shoot with Umbar farther than you could cast a spell, or farther than a monster could interact.

I want to reduce MAX_SIGHT and MAX_RANGE for 3.4, specifically I want MAX_RANGE to be such that you can't get offscreened from a centered position with 32x32 tiles (64x64 tiles are impossible to accommodate, for this without some major gameplay thoughts.)

For this reason, I'm thinking of reducing MAX_SIGHT/RANGE to about 13 or so for 3.4. This will probably be the only major gameplay change that is not in the dev versions. And since it's somewhat major, I'd like some thoughts.
fizzix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 1, 2012, 14:58   #2
Susramanian
Scout
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 41
Susramanian is on a distinguished road
ToME did the same thing when it adopted Shockbolt's 64x64 tiles, but I think it went down to a visibility range of 10. I thought it would be quite radical and feel very strange, but I barely noticed, even playing with 16x16 ascii (which was still cut down to a visibility range of 10). Sort of strange that so drastic and fundamental a change would be so imperceptible, but a nice surprise.
Susramanian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 1, 2012, 18:20   #3
Magnate
Angband Devteam member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: London, UK
Posts: 4,988
Magnate is on a distinguished road
Send a message via MSN to Magnate Send a message via Yahoo to Magnate Send a message via Skype™ to Magnate
MAX_RANGE used to be 18; MAX_SIGHT was always 20 AFAIK.

Very happy to see them both reduced, but why not choose 15 for SIGHT and 14 for RANGE? Those should still be accommodated in a 1024-high screen with 32x32 tiles, shouldn't they?

It's also worth noting that RANGE 14 is the current max for x4 launchers - I think it would be good not to go below this if poss. Since launchers better than x4 are very rare, I don't think it matters that they don't get any extra range.
__________________
"3.4 is much better than 3.1, 3.2 or 3.3. It still is easier than 3.0.9, but it is more convenient to play without being ridiculously easy, so it is my new favorite of the versions." - Timo Pietila
Magnate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 1, 2012, 19:30   #4
Derakon
Prophet
 
Derakon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 5,818
Derakon is on a distinguished road
Why shouldn't we just cap the max range on launchers at MAX_RANGE? No reason to let the player attack monsters when they can't attack back.
Derakon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 1, 2012, 20:01   #5
Magnate
Angband Devteam member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: London, UK
Posts: 4,988
Magnate is on a distinguished road
Send a message via MSN to Magnate Send a message via Yahoo to Magnate Send a message via Skype™ to Magnate
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
Why shouldn't we just cap the max range on launchers at MAX_RANGE? No reason to let the player attack monsters when they can't attack back.
Indeed, I wouldn't suggest anything else. My point is that a x4 launcher ought to have greater range than a x3 launcher. But beyond x4 it's not worth worrying about.
__________________
"3.4 is much better than 3.1, 3.2 or 3.3. It still is easier than 3.0.9, but it is more convenient to play without being ridiculously easy, so it is my new favorite of the versions." - Timo Pietila
Magnate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 1, 2012, 20:08   #6
Mikko Lehtinen
Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,230
Mikko Lehtinen is on a distinguished road
I've been trying to make range more relevant in Fay.

For bow range to really matter in play, it needs to be quite short. In my current dev version short bows have a range 7 and longbows 10. Even that is usually more than enough.

I wanted to leave some room for flight arrows and range enchantments to make a difference.

Of course I've altered the dungeon design quite a bit. Maybe in Vanilla the situation is different.
Mikko Lehtinen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 1, 2012, 20:32   #7
Magnate
Angband Devteam member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: London, UK
Posts: 4,988
Magnate is on a distinguished road
Send a message via MSN to Magnate Send a message via Yahoo to Magnate Send a message via Skype™ to Magnate
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikko Lehtinen View Post
I've been trying to make range more relevant in Fay.

For bow range to really matter in play, it needs to be quite short. In my current dev version short bows have a range 7 and longbows 10. Even that is usually more than enough.

I wanted to leave some room for flight arrows and range enchantments to make a difference.

Of course I've altered the dungeon design quite a bit. Maybe in Vanilla the situation is different.
I'm not sure anybody's thought about it since the launcher ranges were first introduced, whenever that was. There has been an open ticket to reduce range and LOS for a long time, ever since people first realised that playing on handhelds would require it. Bringing all the launcher ranges down by two (or more) wouldn't be a problem, IMO.
__________________
"3.4 is much better than 3.1, 3.2 or 3.3. It still is easier than 3.0.9, but it is more convenient to play without being ridiculously easy, so it is my new favorite of the versions." - Timo Pietila
Magnate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 1, 2012, 20:35   #8
Mikko Lehtinen
Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,230
Mikko Lehtinen is on a distinguished road
You may want to reduce spell range and monster range, too!
Mikko Lehtinen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 1, 2012, 21:20   #9
Shockbolt
Knight
 
Shockbolt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Norway
Posts: 536
Shockbolt is on a distinguished road
Send a message via MSN to Shockbolt Send a message via Skype™ to Shockbolt
And/or make levels have more rooms/shorter corridors
__________________
http://shockbolt.deviantart.com/
Skype: raymond.e.gaustadnes
Shockbolt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 1, 2012, 21:41   #10
Nick
FAangband maintainer
 
Nick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Canberra, Australia
Age: 49
Posts: 4,322
Donated: $60
Nick is on a distinguished road
FA 1.1 has a short range mode, where MAX_SIGHT is 10 (and MAX_RANGE is the same by defeault, IIRC). I've only played it a little; it didn't seem all that different.
__________________
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them.
Nick is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
64X64 Tileset Omissions? Old Coach Development 4 January 28, 2012 19:28
NPPAngband - 64x64 graphics Shockbolt Development 20 November 6, 2011 09:05
What tiles do you use? takkaria Vanilla 15 November 29, 2010 19:03
Help with Tiles! chris Development 2 November 2, 2010 19:03
Z / Z+ with tiles? Cazliostro Variants 4 September 11, 2010 13:20


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:16.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.