3.4, 64x64 tiles and MAX_SIGHT/MAX_RANGE

[fizzix]

The major addition to 3.4 has been Shockbolt's 64x64 tiles. However, 64x64 tiles, as pretty as they are, make for some gameplay difficulties. Specifically, if you have 1024 pixel range (a typical vertical range for a good monitor) then you can only show 16 squares of 64 pixel height. That leaves a lot of stuff offscreen. If you use the squished set of 32x32 pixels you can see 15 squares in either direction, so that's a little more reasonable. However in both cases you can't see as far as the MAX_SIGHT which is how far @ can see, or MAX_RANGE which is how far away Kavlax needs to be to gravity breath you to oblivion.

We currently have MAX_SIGHT and MAX_RANGE both at 20, which is a bit excessive. It didn't used to be 20, it used to be 16 (i think) and was changed to 20 because you could shoot with Umbar farther than you could cast a spell, or farther than a monster could interact.

I want to reduce MAX_SIGHT and MAX_RANGE for 3.4, specifically I want MAX_RANGE to be such that you can't get offscreened from a centered position with 32x32 tiles (64x64 tiles are impossible to accommodate, for this without some major gameplay thoughts.)

For this reason, I'm thinking of reducing MAX_SIGHT/RANGE to about 13 or so for 3.4. This will probably be the only major gameplay change that is not in the dev versions. And since it's somewhat major, I'd like some thoughts.

[Susramanian]

ToME did the same thing when it adopted Shockbolt's 64x64 tiles, but I think it went down to a visibility range of 10. I thought it would be quite radical and feel very strange, but I barely noticed, even playing with 16x16 ascii (which was still cut down to a visibility range of 10). Sort of strange that so drastic and fundamental a change would be so imperceptible, but a nice surprise.

[Magnate]

MAX_RANGE used to be 18; MAX_SIGHT was always 20 AFAIK.

Very happy to see them both reduced, but why not choose 15 for SIGHT and 14 for RANGE? Those should still be accommodated in a 1024-high screen with 32x32 tiles, shouldn't they?

It's also worth noting that RANGE 14 is the current max for x4 launchers - I think it would be good not to go below this if poss. Since launchers better than x4 are very rare, I don't think it matters that they don't get any extra range.

[Derakon]

Why shouldn't we just cap the max range on launchers at MAX_RANGE? No reason to let the player attack monsters when they can't attack back.

[Magnate]

Originally Posted by Derakon

Why shouldn't we just cap the max range on launchers at MAX_RANGE? No reason to let the player attack monsters when they can't attack back.

Indeed, I wouldn't suggest anything else. My point is that a x4 launcher ought to have greater range than a x3 launcher. But beyond x4 it's not worth worrying about.

[Mikko Lehtinen]

I've been trying to make range more relevant in Fay.

For bow range to really matter in play, it needs to be quite short. In my current dev version short bows have a range 7 and longbows 10. Even that is usually more than enough.

I wanted to leave some room for flight arrows and range enchantments to make a difference.

Of course I've altered the dungeon design quite a bit. Maybe in Vanilla the situation is different.

[Magnate]

Originally Posted by Mikko Lehtinen

I've been trying to make range more relevant in Fay.

For bow range to really matter in play, it needs to be quite short. In my current dev version short bows have a range 7 and longbows 10. Even that is usually more than enough.

I wanted to leave some room for flight arrows and range enchantments to make a difference.

Of course I've altered the dungeon design quite a bit. Maybe in Vanilla the situation is different.

I'm not sure anybody's thought about it since the launcher ranges were first introduced, whenever that was. There has been an open ticket to reduce range and LOS for a long time, ever since people first realised that playing on handhelds would require it. Bringing all the launcher ranges down by two (or more) wouldn't be a problem, IMO.

[Mikko Lehtinen]

You may want to reduce spell range and monster range, too!

[Shockbolt]

And/or make levels have more rooms/shorter corridors

[Nick]

FA 1.1 has a short range mode, where MAX_SIGHT is 10 (and MAX_RANGE is the same by defeault, IIRC). I've only played it a little; it didn't seem all that different.