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Old January 2, 2016, 18:27   #41
Egavactip
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingwe Ingweron View Post
Of all your reasoning, experience has shown me that none of it holds up EXCEPT that last one. If that's your reason, by all means kill every last one of them!
With which of these contentions do you disagree and why?

1) It is easier to deal with Morgoth alone than Morgoth AND uniques together.

2) When you are fighting a unique by itself, you have more opportunities to be in control of the fighting environment, often to the extent of making the kill easy or virtually guaranteed. You have less control over the fighting environment when Morgoth is involved, because he can change it in many ways, from its physical nature to the number of combatants involved.

3) It is a good thing to be as in control of as many factors as possible when fighting Morgoth.

I'd be mighty interested to see how this "reasoning" is so faulty.
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Old January 2, 2016, 18:42   #42
Carnivean
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Egavactip View Post
I'd be mighty interested to see how this "reasoning" is so faulty.
I think Ingwe's point is that the reasoning may appear sound, but in practice it's not really applicable. Ingwe's had a LOT of experience at the end game, having won with every race/class combination, so he's talking with the authority of someone who has a solid collection of data, rather than merely reasoning out a hypothesis.

In the end game control over the field of battle has to be at the point where it doesn't matter what Morgoth summons. Greater undead, greater dragons and greater demons are dangerous threats, some of them the equal of many of the uniques. If you can't handle the uniques, then you'll probably be overwhelmed by the other summons.

The other factor is that by engaging in more combats, when seeking out the uniques, you're increasing the number of opportunities to die. No matter how in control of the situations you think you are, the RNG can always spring something on you.
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Old January 2, 2016, 23:19   #43
Ingwe Ingweron
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Egavactip View Post
With which of these contentions do you disagree and why? ...I'd be mighty interested to see how this "reasoning" is so faulty.
There are two schools of thought in mountain climbing. Both are all about risk reduction. Laying siege strives to reduce risk by having every conceivable piece of equipment to deal with any situation that may arise, but it requires a lot of time and exposes the climber to severe risks repeatedly over that time. The alpine speed method strives to reduce risk by carrying only what is necessary for the most common risks and racing to the summit, thereby limiting the time for risks to occur.

In taking on the Big Bosses in Angband, it is much the same. So, addressing your questions in turn:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Egavactip View Post
1) It is easier to deal with Morgoth alone than Morgoth AND uniques together.
Well, all other things being equal, ...yes..., BUT, things are not equal! To kill all the uniques @ had to be exposed to a very large number of risks. Also, uniques are not the only thing Morgoth summons, nor are all uniques all that dangerous to @ in the end-game. If @ has sufficient means to handle Morgoth's summons (with TO, Banishment, Mass Banishment, and Destruction), has sufficient hit points, has sufficient healing, and has sufficient ability to inflict damage, then there is no reason to continue exposing @ to risks. Go to guns on the Big Bosses immediately. The longer you're on the mountain, the greater the risk of being caught in an avalanche from which no amount of gear or preparation in the world can save you!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Egavactip View Post
2) When you are fighting a unique by itself, you have more opportunities to be in control of the fighting environment, often to the extent of making the kill easy or virtually guaranteed. You have less control over the fighting environment when Morgoth is involved, because he can change it in many ways, from its physical nature to the number of combatants involved.
Your contention about fighting uniques is true only if the conditions are right, e.g., @ has the right resistances, the right damage dealing ability, the right speed, and the right terrain. Otherwise, @ is simply being exposed to greater failure opportunities from the RNG or from making a mistake.

I view uniques as targets of opportunity. If @ has the right conditions, take them out. If not, avoid them. A case in point is the Tarrasque. Sure, if @ has found The One Ring, or is double fisting Narya and Nenya, and has big damage dealing ability, and has sufficient healing and hitpoints, and has sufficient speed, then the Tarrasque is a "target of opportunity" otherwise, the mean "R" is a recipe for large risks of consumables wasted and @ death. Much easier to simply TO or destruct the sucker if Morgoth happens to summon him.

As for control of the terrain in fighting Morgoth, I'll cover that in the next answer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Egavactip View Post
3) It is a good thing to be as in control of as many factors as possible when fighting Morgoth.
I'd say it's good to be in control of enough factors to win. You don't need to control every possible factor. You don't need to kill every unique. You don't need to have every resistance hole covered. You don't need to have every stat sustained. You don't need to have 40 potions of life! What you need is whatever is sufficient for a particular @ to win. Anything more than that and it means @ has to be exposed to greater risks of failure and death from the RNG.

My @'s always have sufficient control of the terrain in fighting the Big Bosses.

Sauron: @ digs a small cubby-hole so that only "p" can attack and his summons are very limited. If @ has access to a Rune of Protection or Glyph of Warding, @ stands on it. @ buffs up as much as possible. (If not an ironman game, @ buys out the shops of all the !Heroism, ?Prayer, ?Chant, ?Blessing, !Berserk Strength, !rCold, !rHeat, !rPoison, and quaffs or reads them all before attacking Sauron.) @ then uses his best attacks, either missiles, melee or spells until Sauron is dead.

Morgoth: Except in a few rare cases where "P" was in a perma-walled vault AND @ could manipulate the situation to advantage, all my winning @'s fought Morgoth in a destructed zone. (Note that fighting Morgoth in a perma-walled vault carries much greater risk of @ being crushed by falling debris as @ has less places to dodge. If @ isn't in a position to control the perma-walled engagement, then better to lead Morgoth out into a destructed zone.)

@ has great control over the terrain in fighting Morgoth, even with all the Big-P's summons. First making sure Morgoth isn't in the immediate area, @ destructs the area. If @ has access to Runes of Protection or Glyph of Warding, by all means stand on it. @ buffs up as much as possible (same as with Sauron). When Morgoth shows up, @ uses his best attacks. If Morgoth summons, assess whether the summoned are dangerous to @ (they aren't always a concern). TO, Banish, or Mass Banish as may be needed. In dire circumstances, TO Morgoth and destruct again. If the Rune is broken and @'s hit points are approaching 600 or below, Phase Door (this nearly always gets @ out of line of sight in a destructed zone) and heal. Rinse and Repeat.

It is this ability to sufficiently control the terrain of battle that makes hunting down all those uniques a waste of time and an unjustifed risk. UNLESS, you are hunting down all those uniques simply for the fun of it, regardless of the risks. That is the only reason you gave that, in my opinion, had merit. When you get tired of doing that and start entering competitions where turncount matters, you simply won't want to waste the time.
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“We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see.”
― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

Last edited by Ingwe Ingweron; October 24, 2016 at 22:58.
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Old January 22, 2016, 06:57   #44
Pete Mack
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If you leave lots of unique ALIVE, M is likely to summon the easy ones and block out the dangerous ones. It is especially good to leave Unique trolls alive, and let their escort fill up empty space. That said, uniques lower than that are not going to get summoned.
If all that's left is the Tarrasque, you are guaranteed to see it.

[QUOTE=Ingwe Ingweron;107826]There are two schools of thought in mountain climbing. Both are all about risk reduction. Laying siege strives to reduce risk by having every conceivable piece of equipment to deal with any situation that may arise, but it requires a lot of time and exposes the climber to severe risks repeatedly over that time. The alpine speed method strives to reduce risk by carrying only what is necessary for the most common risks and racing to the summit, thereby limiting the time for risks to occur.
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