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Old March 15, 2017, 09:30   #11
taptap
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Quote:
Originally Posted by t4nk View Post
Feature request: remove levels 21-40. That is, when the player goes upstairs from the Morgoth's room, the game displays this text:
Code:
Up through the dark and echoing gloom	
as ghosts from many-tunnelled tomb,	
up from the mountains' roots profound	
and the vast menace underground,	
his limbs aquake with deadly fear,
terror in eyes, and dread in ear,	
together fled he, by the beat	
affrighted of his flying feet.
...and teleports the player to the final level (with Carcharoth & co), just like in Tolkien's poem.
After getting silmarils the most interesting part of the game (and story) is over; extending it is just tedium. Yes, it makes the game more difficult, but in an unfun way. E.g., by that time your character's development is over, so it's time for the game to be over as well. Also, the ascention promotes grinding (staves of revelations, exp. for exchange places, etc), which seems antithetical to the goals of Sil.
I know that mpa-sil makes all upstairs on the ascent work as upshafts, but that's not even a half measure (more like 10% measure). And it's bizarre and "gamey". So I'd sugget to just remove the whole ascent thing, except for Carcharoth level, which is very cool.
Since this is likely a popular request: The ascent is only boring when you 1) routinely kill Morgoth so lack the tension of Morgoth on your heels 2) done it many times already (+ 3) don't die on the ascent). This is not the case for many players. It also removes an option to only grab a Sil in the throne room and have a go at Morgoth later. (An option for some archers not equipped to take on V in his lair.) The ascent is only a fraction of playing time, imo streamlining it away suits certain builds, but does little for variety and misses the main point. Like in mountaineering, reaching the peak isn't the most important thing, coming back safely is. At least for me the most memorable playthrough is one where I died at 50' (in the Beren competition), that came pretty close to the literary original even lost Angrist in the throne room.
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Old March 15, 2017, 09:38   #12
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The ascent is boring when V is dead, and unbearably annoying when he lives. It's maybe interesting the first couple of times, but especially with the songs from 1.2 it's really obnoxious. The only redeeming part of the whole thing is the gates, which are super fun.

I think if the ascent was super truncated (4-5 floors) or took place in an alternate level type (some sort of secret stairs like the secret ones in Moria, I dunno) it would be worth it. Right now whenever I play a character that makes it to the throne room without killing V, I just suicide it and don't bother posting the dump.

It does sound like some people like the ascent, though. So perhaps I'm just in the minority.
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Old March 15, 2017, 19:08   #13
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Originally Posted by t4nk View Post
Feature request: remove levels 21-40.
No. I like the ascent. It plays very differently for different kinds of characters and is definitely not trivial. ~60 of the 560 ladder characters with at least 1 sil don't escape alive. 5/35 in mpa-1.3.0 and 10/109 for all 1.3.0 games.


Quote:
Also, the ascention promotes grinding (staves of revelations, exp. for exchange places, etc), which seems antithetical to the goals of Sil.
I agree with this, but the current meta is also, to produce a winner, scum 950ft for throne room gear and more consumables than you'll ever really need. I think addressing this will solve both problems.

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I know that mpa-sil makes all upstairs on the ascent work as upshafts, but that's not even a half measure (more like 10% measure). And it's bizarre and "gamey".
I disagree. The divine light guides the way. It's divine it can break rules. In terms of scumming for revelations in particular the motivation could be removed by having a Sil grant mapping on the ascent, guiding the way out. But I'm not of a mind to tweak the ascent at this point.
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Old March 15, 2017, 19:14   #14
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Originally Posted by debo View Post
The ascent is boring when V is dead, and unbearably annoying when he lives. It's maybe interesting the first couple of times, but especially with the songs from 1.2 it's really obnoxious. The only redeeming part of the whole thing is the gates, which are super fun.
Maybe the post-Morgoth-death monster Al should be changed by *a lot* to make them 100x more aggravated and faster to compensate To get an idea of what I mean, take the monsters from ToME 2.3.x's Angband dungeon. Here, the monsters, even your then trivial Stone Trolls, are waaay faster, stronger, and harder to kill by DarkGod's design. This will definitely make it less boring.
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Old March 15, 2017, 19:23   #15
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Originally Posted by HugoTheGreat2011 View Post
Maybe the post-Morgoth-death monster Al should be changed by *a lot* to make them 100x more aggravated and faster to compensate
On a character strong enough to kill Morgoth that just sounds pretty annoying. Some level of Ag/Sil could be interesting for pure sneakers. Or could be just annoying, hard to tell without testing. Currently if you have enough stealth to sneak the throne room, you're pretty much able to just walk out on the ascent. I think Morgy's pet doggie might actually be more perceptive then he is. If you sneak past him without disturbing him you often can walk through a room with Morgoth hunting you without problems.

Mostly I think the ascents fine: On some builds it's an annoyance but easy, some it's hard & you've still got a bit of game left.

Last edited by wobbly; March 15, 2017 at 19:34.
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Old March 15, 2017, 20:03   #16
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I agree with this, but the current meta is also, to produce a winner, scum 950ft for throne room gear and more consumables than you'll ever really need. I think addressing this will solve both problems.
Solution: forced descent. One shot at every dungeon level, no replays. Maybe compensate fast players by making the number of monsters in the throne room depend on how long the player's taken to get to it; I don't have a feel for how meaningful a change that would be though since I've (still) never played Sil.
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Old March 15, 2017, 20:07   #17
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Forced descent Sil is quite good in some ways (for one it takes outs the certainty of killing Morgoth for experienced players) & bad (chasms come close to forcing leaping).
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Old March 17, 2017, 19:13   #18
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More changes to throwing, granting Assassination and Cruel Blow. Skill notes to Character dumps. Found and fixed another bug. Song of oaths was summoning emerald serpents and not oath wraiths!

Next targets are a no-auto-pickup inscription, focus and concentration Sil cutting, and maybe Lore-Master.

Like I said, I'm not really looking to tinker with the ascent at this point.
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Old March 20, 2017, 20:33   #19
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Nice. Another rather common request is removing the light and hunger clocks; maybe have the player start with a +1 light radius lantern, with jewels being +2 light radius and lamps +3. There's already a turn clock to discourage loitering on the upper levels.

An undroppable "adventurer's pack" type item containing rations, extra fuel, a shovel and rope for safely descending/traversin chasms (given a few uninterrupted turns) would also be nice to handwaive the above and making chasms less annoying for exploring.
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Old March 20, 2017, 22:32   #20
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Note that while hunger is never a problem in an ordinarily played game, it discourages strategies where you stack hunger increasing enchantments (regeneration and vampiric for example). I would say keep the hunger/light clock, but have a cooldown on how often your adventurer's backpack can dispense new food/light sources, to prevent these strategies from becoming too easy.

Also, if you can produce infinite food, you now need a way to force the player to die if they get trapped by a cave-in. Either they can eventually remove rubble without a digger given a large amount of uninterrupted time, or being trapped in a blob of the level with no connected stairs or chasms causes you to slowly suffocate and lose HP.
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