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Old March 12, 2018, 10:02   #41
Grotug
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Originally Posted by Moving Pictures View Post
Alright. So I did as you said: loaded up on the sneaky/stealthy stuff.

Zapped into a level. Got mugged by a nether wraith; managed to hold it off so it didn’t touch. Got mugged by a death knight, teleported it. Disposed of a hydra. That cleared the room ....

Detected doors/traps/stairs.

it’s a 4-5 level.

Snoop about. Murder a baby gold dragon in its slumber, same with a snake. Pick up a hydra .. prepare to line it up at 10 squares, and....

right around the corner is a shadow. ESP didn’t get it, so now I’m toe-to-toe with another level drainer. Marvy – but it didn’t notice, so I murder it.

So now I have a four-head hydra, death knight and a young white dragon in LOS. Knight is my worry, dragons I can handle.

Run away? I step back, but the Death knight whacks me with a spell while I’m retreating, a spell that’s resisted. (confusion, no doubt). I could flee, but it goes fast. Death knight resists cold, so I go with ring of ... acid, which I took off for that CON bonus. Right. I’m not hurt.

[snip]
I stopped reading when you didn't 'Teleport Other' the death knight. Why didn't you 'Teleport Other' the death knight? I would have 'Teleport Other' the death knight. Next time 'Teleport Other' the death knight. Did I mention you should have teleported the death knight away?

It might seem rude of me to hammer the point excessively about teleporting the death knight away, but repetition works well when trying to learn new concepts. When I was losing a lot at Angband it was hard for me to listen to the advice of others and change my tactics. Either I didn't understand how to employ the tactic and so stopped trying it when it didn't work, or it was too foreign an idea to me to even want to try it. One thing I used to not understand about 'Teleport Other' was that the monster is still on the level and I will run into it again, so I saw it as a temporary band aid solution to a problem. Which raises the point others have made many times now. Don't clear the level. When I employed these two tactics together my game changed immensely.

I play with forced descent on. It means every time I recall, the next time I go down the stairs I will be one level deeper. I can never play the same depth twice and I can never play a higher level than the one I'm on. I have a limited number of levels before I am forced to fight the bosses. Even playing in this dangerous way, not clearing the level is still the smartest move. When you know there is danger you can't deal with on a level, then leave the level. If there is a vault, go to the vault, TO the deadly baddies and the ones that can summon if you can't kill them quickly, and never leave the vault for the remainder of the level (of course pink Qs often put a wrench in this plan). For you, where you have infinite levels at your disposal, maybe a good exercise would be to just hit the stairs a lot. Every time you see stairs, just take them, unless there is something *really* promising to keep you on the level.

One thing veteran players learn how to do is to know when a level is no longer interesting. This often happens very quickly on a level. There's no point in spending any more time on a level than is absolutely necessary when there is a whole other level with sleeping monsters on it to explore. The longer you are on a level, the more monsters are waking up. And if you start on a level with dangerous breathers near by, THIS is the best time to teleport yourself. At the start of a level, teleport self is relatively safe, especially if you are immediately in danger upon arriving on a level. But if you have no fail on Teleport level, then yeah. DO THAT.

Anyway, to reinforce how powerful teleport other is. During my games, if I haven't found teleport other by a certain depth, I start to view the game as a matter of time: if I don't find teleport other soon, I will die. If I find it, I won't. That said, I still prefer the half troll warrior to say Half Troll Rogue as the damage output and hitpoints of HT Warrior is so powerful, and the unknown about when I'll get teleport other is part of the fun.

A good rule of thumb is: if you teleport away the same individual very dangerous monster twice leave the level.

Something to consider about randomness in Angband. I used to have this idea that random meant you'd get something different each time, but you didn't know what you'd get. I've finally learned that what random really means is that you will get anything and it often doesn't feel random at all. For example, sometimes I get very discouraged when I'm in the DL40s because I get one horrible level after another; each one is filled with undead, Liches, Dreadmasters, etc. etc. and it just feels like all the DL40 levels are going to be like this for eternity. But randomness tends to put things in streaks. I often have lucky streaks, where all my ?phases land ideally, then none of them do. Or all the levels I go to are calm and quiet with good loot, and then all of them are lousy. This concept reinforces the idea to change levels if the level is not to your liking. You may have to change levels 10 times in quick succession. But you will eventually get a favorable level.

I am doing a thread that gives a detail report of my in game adventures. Maybe reading it would be helpful? It's for a half troll warrior, so might be helpful for your playstyle (which seems to be kill stuff). My playstyle is I want to kill everything, so I find Half Troll Warrior best for this way of playing. Regardless of your class/combo preference, I think it gives good advice and insight into tactics and staying alive. Follow my adventures here.

Last edited by Grotug; March 12, 2018 at 10:51.
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Old March 12, 2018, 17:32   #42
Pete Mack
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Oh yeah. A death knight at CL 26 is plenty dangerous, especially with a low-HP character like a half-elf ranger. (Also: half-elf is seriously weak.) They have a ferocious nether bolt spell. Also: fighting invisible monsters without SI is a huge waste of resources. And unlimited use of _TS is pretty much a guarantee of death.

There will be other vaults--and much better than the puny things you found.

As for what you are doing wrong: you are fighting too many monsters. Detect often, avoid often, and keep your powder dry for worthwhile foes. And you are not going deep enough. DL 29 is the very worst level you could spend time on, unless the object level feeling is very high: DL 30 is where most stat potions are native, so they are much more common even just one level deeper.
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Old March 12, 2018, 17:36   #43
Derakon
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And unlimited use of _TS is pretty much a guarantee of death.
At the level of skill that Moving Pictures is at, teleporting yourself is generally a safer bet than not teleporting yourself. Teleporting the enemy is safer still, of course.
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Old March 12, 2018, 17:45   #44
Pete Mack
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Sure. But simply avoiding them (and not letting them wake up) is safest of all.

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At the level of skill that Moving Pictures is at, teleporting yourself is generally a safer bet than not teleporting yourself. Teleporting the enemy is safer still, of course.
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Old March 13, 2018, 11:48   #45
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Now I ponder my offence:
acid ball; 79 damage, 24 mana, 7% failure rate.
Fire ball: 94 damage, 28 mana and a not-so-friendly 29% failure rate.
Now, wtf, acid ball. Best offensive tool I have, I think.
You forgot you Bow.
Even with plain arrows and that Extra Might bow, you do 150 damage/round (two shots per round at 75 damage each).

Take 80+ arrows with you. Take 10+ scrolls of Phase Door with you; unlike the spell, they always work. Try to drag monsters into long straight corridors (you see them from afar with ESP, move into that corridor before they have line of sight). Shoot them from range, and phase once they reach melee range.

These Rods of Fire and Frost Bolt? If you have good arrows, you do more damage even against vulnerable monsters. Carry more arrows instead.
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Old March 13, 2018, 19:13   #46
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Oh gosh, yes. Ranger attack spells use huge amounts of mana. If you want to use those spells, play mage. A good longbow in the hands of a dl 20+ ranger is a machine gun. Eventually you will get the branding spell, which makes it even more ridiculous.

Also:
make a keymap for shooting arrows from the first quiver slot at the current target. That makes archery a lot more convenient.
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Old March 14, 2018, 01:53   #47
Moving Pictures
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Originally Posted by Grotung
I stopped reading when you didn't 'Teleport Other' the death knight. Why didn't you 'Teleport Other' the death knight? ......
A good rule of thumb is: if you teleport away the same individual very dangerous monster twice leave the level.
Ah, that's a good guide. Yes, I am using TO more often, now. Actually, today was kinda a play day, as it was snowing outside and between tending the maple syrup evaporator, I could play a ton. I successfully TO-ed three nasty uniques out of a big vault full of twists (time/control elements in my favour) and managed to score three really solid items as a result, one of which was Kalek's book of built-nasty. So now I'm just about to go into my second dive loaded up with branded +10/+11 (ish) arrows. That combined with boots of +15 SPD and a +9 ring, means there's been a huge shift in the power output.


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This concept reinforces the idea to change levels if the level is not to your liking. You may have to change levels 10 times in quick succession. But you will eventually get a favorable level.
I've been doing that more, too.... but a query. What do you term "level not to your liking?" How do you define that?
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Old March 14, 2018, 02:41   #48
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I've been doing that more, too.... but a query. What do you term "level not to your liking?" How do you define that?
Generally speaking, if there's a situation you don't want to deal with, leave the level. Maybe stay if you know there's something else on the level that you do want to deal with (like a juicy-looking vault), but err on the side of leaving. Stuff that can convince me to leave include awake enemies that I don't want to fight, sleeping enemies I don't want to fight that I can't get around, more than a certain minimum density of enemies I don't want to fight even if I can, for the moment, work my way around them, levels with graveyards, demon pits, or zoos (the latter mostly if the terrain is such that the animals are breaking out)...or even just if I've explored enough of the level to be pretty confident there's nothing of interest on it.

There's infinite levels (when playing without forced-descent), so you don't miss out on anything if you leave a level "early".
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Old March 15, 2018, 15:36   #49
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Update (gee, I'm a moron)

Couple things came into focus this week. One: I did not know levels capped at 50. Had I known that, I think I would have been less grind-intensive.

Second: now what? I piled on a deep descent and am finding 80-ish to be hit-and-miss. Some uniques I can handle, some I haven't the capacity for and fear I may never (Osse for one, along with pit fiends.)

I've done a better job of juggling my devices to obtain resistance on all fronts, but I find nexus and nether are driving me bonkers. The former for its random transports, the latter for the owthathurt.

I've banished time hounds when I can, but that's my next issue: no banishing power, apart from three scrolls. Pondering going up into the 60s and scumming for banishing tools. Thoughts?
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Old March 15, 2018, 16:53   #50
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60s is not really any more safe than 80s. For the last ~third of the game, about all that changes is more nasty uniques show up and fewer low-level monsters do. That is, the non-unique enemies you face have about the same threat level, they're just more densely-placed. In particular, a vault at level 98 is pretty much identical in threat level to a vault at level 60. But the items in the vault can still be better than what you'd find on the floor at 98 (let alone 60). By the way, level 99 has Sauron on it, which is why I said 98. Usually you don't go to 99 until you feel ready to fight Sauron.

You're right that you're never going to be a statistical match for high-level enemies. Mostly what you need to survive deep down is careful play. You don't have to banish hounds as long as you can see them before they can get LOS on you, via ESP or monster detection. You should be able to just turn around and go somewhere else instead. Keep in mind that with high STR you can tunnel through solid granite in only a few turns, so if there isn't a tunnel going where you want to go, you can make one.

When you do go to fight nasty foes, you generally need three things: speed, damage, and healing. The more you have of the first two, the less you need of the third, but you should always assume you'll need some healing. Carry potions of Healing as soon as you start finding them, always buy more if you see them in the Black Market, and don't be afraid to use them. Osse is a pain not just because his nether breath hurts (even resisted, it can hit for up to 470), but because he has a lot of health and no slays or brands apply to him, so it can take awhile to wear him down -- but if you have enough healing, the fight's really just a matter of time.

Oh, and you should be fighting all uniques, and plenty of other monsters, from within what's called an "anti-summoning corridor". You dig a zigzag corridor through the rock (e.g. alternating between digging NE and digging NW), and lure the monster into the corridor. That way if they summon the summons will appear behind them. Obviously this works less well for monsters that can walk through walls, and is especially limited against enemies that can bore through walls, but the basic principle of limiting how many open tiles a) are next to you, and b) are in line of sight, still applies. The fewer monsters that can see you, the fewer that can hit you with damaging spells/breaths.
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