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Old August 9, 2018, 07:58   #1
quarague
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spell casting and line of sight

I just lost a char to a small undead pit. Char was a HT paladin, level 38, dlevel 75, small room with 5x6 or so random undead. I know these rooms can be very dangerous ;-)
I had already killed a Dreadmaster and various other random G, standing in a corridor leading towards the room and killed the first few non wall passers. From detection I knew there was one master lich and 4 'e', I think 2 skull druj and 2 hand druj left (plus random harmless stuff) in the room.
The master lich cast teleport to and then I was hit by water 3 times before I got a turn. 400+ remaining hitpoints to dead.
Key question: the master lich (as any other monster) needs to have line of sight of me in order to cast anything? It is not sufficient, that it just knows where I am (through telepathy or something)?
Bad luck count: I had speed +21, drujs have +10? They cast spells 1 in 2 times? They have multiple spells to choose from, water is only one of them? So what are the odds that 3 out of 4 cast water at me before I get a turn?
Feature request: show the entire dungeon level including all monsters upon death. (I hope this doesn't exist already and I overlooked it). As is I never got to see the spot where my char died and which monsters actually hit me. This feature would also help better understand death from of screen situations.
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Old August 9, 2018, 15:51   #2
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In Vanilla, monsters cannot cast without being able to see you. This is not the case in some variants, where they'll use splash damage to hit you when they cannot see your tile. Remember that LOS is asymmetric.

As for the odds of the drujs all casting water at you, drujs are nasty things, I definitely wouldn't expose myself to four even if I had speed advantage.
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Old August 9, 2018, 18:53   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quarague View Post
Bad luck count: I had speed +21, drujs have +10? They cast spells 1 in 2 times? They have multiple spells to choose from, water is only one of them? So what are the odds that 3 out of 4 cast water at me before I get a turn?
Speed +20. 1 time in 1.

It wouldn't help if, instead of water ball for 197 damage, they'd cast mana bolt for 253 damage, brain smash for 216, nether ball for 208 ...

In addition, how closely did you watch the messages? Several of their spells are able to stun you and even knock you out, unless you have protection from stunning.
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Old August 9, 2018, 23:15   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
In Vanilla, monsters cannot cast without being able to see you. This is not the case in some variants, where they'll use splash damage to hit you when they cannot see your tile.
I lost a character in NPP once from a high-level nether breather teleporting to me from out of LoS and breathing.
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Old August 9, 2018, 23:39   #5
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Oh yeah. Azathoth is just death in NPP. Believe he also has passwall.
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Old August 10, 2018, 00:16   #6
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NPP has a lot of uniques that are "flee the level immediately if you are not capable of taking them in a stand-up fight" caliber.
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Old August 10, 2018, 05:23   #7
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Also, the @##$%s can "see" and "target" your @ from inside walls, but your @ cannot target them with a spell or missile if the monster is inside a wall.
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Old August 10, 2018, 22:15   #8
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drujs are nasty things, I definitely wouldn't expose myself to four even if I had speed advantage.
I agree, I wouldn't do so on purpose either. Which raises the question how you are supposed to clean a room like that. Drujs don't move, they stay put.
Of course you never have to enter a particular room in angband, you can always just generate new dungeons. Having monster rooms that are not worth the risk for most chars in most situations is perfectly fine the way angband dungeons work. Undead pits in the bottom third of the dungeon seem to me to be things that cannot be cleared without major risks for any char.
I guess banish would work but that misses the point. A good pit room should be worth clearing for a well geared well prepared careful char. I didn't fulfill this when I tried, but I don't see how a different char could handle multiple drujs in an open lit room. Digging and line of sight trickery only works if they sit in different corners.
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Old August 10, 2018, 22:25   #9
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Digging and abuse of LOS should allow anyone with ball spells to kill any stationary enemy, given enough patience. It may not always suffice if you only have straight-line ranged attacks, though.

But I'm firmly of the opinion that this is one of those things you just leave be if you have any option to do so.
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Old August 10, 2018, 23:28   #10
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Another option is a staff of Banishment. But yes, tunneling so you are in view of at most one is the way to go. Then LOS abuse and/or TO.
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