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Old March 30, 2019, 07:53   #41
Mocht
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Originally Posted by Sideways View Post
And that kind of thing is why I'm wary of adding options like this without extensive vetting
These options are extremely popular and you want people to justify to you why they should be restored, you are making the exact same mistake that Chris made
You are also making another mistake
Towards the end of Chris's reign, Clouded wrote that the changes were inconsistent with the spirit of Poschengband, Chris didn't see it, and you aren't seeing it either
This lineage of games is supposed to be as big, wild and varied as possible, the term bat-shit crazy was used for Poschgengband, a term Chris took offence to
Having unbalanced options that completely change the gameplay suits the lineage perfectly
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Old March 30, 2019, 10:16   #42
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People are welcome to fork FrogComposband and create their own variants if they feel they can do a better job than me

Usually, though, I end up erring on the side of adding popularly requested options even if I don't agree with them personally; like the easy_damage option; people had to yell at me and get emotional at me a lot before I added it, but I did add it. FrogComposband is a big tent variant and its players don't have to agree with my personal views on everything. That's why options exist.

But there are a few things that I'm particularly reluctant to add. The first is any option (or any other modification) that makes the game radically easier. When people win, they need to feel like a winner and know they beat the game legitimately, and not because they turned on some option that essentially amounts to cheat-mode. The other is monsters, game mechanics etc. (but not necessarily options - options are the player's own choice, they know what they're getting into) that increase the chance of unfair deaths the player could do nothing about (and monsters of this type could also fall into the first category if they got mimicked or possessed...)

I'm fully embracing the bat-shit craziness of the PosChengband lineage, but I will readily admit I'm not embracing its unbalancedness. There is space in the options, certainly, for things that change the balance, even dramatically; but if you want a complete lack of it, try Composband

--

And like I said, it's a different game now. If I just straight-up ported the old code for those options, they wouldn't play the same way anymore. If I want to make those options play the way they did then, I'll have to make further modifications - and know what it is that people liked about the way those options played then.
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Old March 30, 2019, 11:53   #43
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People are welcome to fork FrogComposband and create their own variants if they feel they can do a better job than me
This is open source software's biggest weakness, the biggest thing holding it back: if you disagree with developers about anything then there is no discussion, they simply say "If you have a problem then fork me"
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Old March 30, 2019, 12:09   #44
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Mocht: how is that different from any other project? As it happens, i understand both your points. The bottom line: if you want this option, it needs a different name--say Composband--quick mode. That name needs to be in the title, not just in the options, because it screws up the ladder, and as sideways said, it is a completely different game. Yes, it could be done as a fork, but also with ingame mechanics. The trouble is, it adds more work that *someone has to be willing to do and maintain.* This is why sideways mentions the fork: he alone can't afford to put in the time. If you want to do it, and it proves popular, it can be folded back in. That is why github exists, more or less.
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Old March 30, 2019, 12:27   #45
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If I want to make those options play the way they did then, I'll have to make further modifications - and know what it is that people liked about the way those options played then
If you don't understand why those options are popular then that shows a worrying distance between you and your players
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Old March 30, 2019, 12:31   #46
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Mocht: how is that different from any other project?
If you are a client and you pay for something then the person who made it might listen to you
But with respect to free software, developers will not enter into any discussions
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Old March 30, 2019, 12:35   #47
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Mocht: how is that different from any other project? As it happens, i understand both your points. The bottom line: if you want this option, it needs a different name--say Composband--quick mode. That name needs to be in the title, not just in the options, because it screws up the ladder, and as sideways said, it is a completely different game. Yes, it could be done as a fork, but also with ingame mechanics. The trouble is, it adds more work that *someone has to be willing to do and maintain.* This is why sideways mentions the fork: he alone can't afford to put in the time. If you want to do it, and it proves popular, it can be folded back in. That is why github exists, more or less.
If I repeat that Composband is not FrogComposband often enough people may eventually take it on board.
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Old March 30, 2019, 12:41   #48
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If you don't understand why those options are popular then that shows a worrying distance between you and your players
If I don't understand why an option was popular I will seek to understand why it is that the option was popular, so that if the option ever is re-introduced I can make sure that the characteristics that once made it popular can be retained in the new, different context, which simply porting the old code would not necessarily achieve because the context is new and different. I'm not sure why you find this objectionable.
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Old March 30, 2019, 12:48   #49
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If I repeat that Composband is not FrogComposband often enough people may eventually take it on board.
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Old March 30, 2019, 13:22   #50
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... the new, different context ... the context is new and different
It would be logically sound for you to assert "Nup, I don't like it, not in my game", or "Too much hassle"; no player believes that Frog is significantly different to Pos
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