Angband.oook.cz
Angband.oook.cz
AboutVariantsLadderForumCompetitionComicScreenshotsFunniesLinks

Go Back   Angband Forums > Angband > Vanilla

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old April 15, 2019, 00:51   #11
Sparrow the Dunadan
Apprentice
 
Sparrow the Dunadan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: Olympia, WA
Age: 40
Posts: 90
Sparrow the Dunadan is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Estie View Post
First of all, the (-2) penalty to hit is a relic from old times; maybe it was relevant in some age old version, but with the current combat system it is not. You can completely ignore that penalty.

18 str is middlish; enough to not have to worry about the weight of consumables but not enough to disregard all weight yet. Youll have to worry what to leave behind when you drop to negative speed, which shouldnt be too painful unlike with a, say, gnome mage.

As for your armor, when I play and find an armor with a useful resist like yours, I squelch all {good} armors.
Well I'm playing a Dunadan Ranger, so how does that factor in? Besides I'm playing with persistent levels, and selling on. (I like the casualness of the game play, so sue me.)
Sparrow the Dunadan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 15, 2019, 00:52   #12
Sparrow the Dunadan
Apprentice
 
Sparrow the Dunadan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: Olympia, WA
Age: 40
Posts: 90
Sparrow the Dunadan is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by luneya View Post
Also remember that the DSM can be activated for a breath attack. In 4.1.x, that'll be a cone breath, which isn't nearly as effective as the old ball spell, but can still help you with clearing out hordes of annoying things.

True enough. Which is why I'm considering DSM armor right now. I just want to know the pros and cons of switching out of my current armor before doing so.
Sparrow the Dunadan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 15, 2019, 01:04   #13
Estie
Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Germany
Posts: 1,621
Estie is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparrow the Dunadan View Post
Well I'm playing a Dunadan Ranger, so how does that factor in? Besides I'm playing with persistent levels, and selling on. (I like the casualness of the game play, so sue me.)
That you are a ranger doesnt factor in at all; all classes want armor for the same reasons. I dont know about persistent levels, I never played that way.
Estie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 15, 2019, 05:19   #14
Sparrow the Dunadan
Apprentice
 
Sparrow the Dunadan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: Olympia, WA
Age: 40
Posts: 90
Sparrow the Dunadan is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
The basic dragon scale mails (for the four common elements) used to be much more rare, to the point that by the time you found them you were practically guaranteed to have something better. They were made more common and shallower, but to compensate their AC bonuses were reduced. Later dragon scale mails for more exotic elements have correspondingly higher AC bonuses.

And yeah, that breath weapon can be quite handy. It recharges quickly enough that you can lead off most fights with a fairly potent breath, significantly reducing how long the fight lasts (and thus how much damage you take, how many consumables you use, etc.)
Yeah. I think I will switch soon in that case.
Sparrow the Dunadan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 15, 2019, 11:00   #15
wobbly
Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Posts: 1,953
wobbly is on a distinguished road
AC was raised across the board because armour class is not valuable. An interesting decision to say the least.
If something is not valuable and you give everyone more, does it become more or less valuable?
If melee is not dangerous enough is the solution to make it safer or more dangerous?
wobbly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 15, 2019, 13:30   #16
Estie
Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Germany
Posts: 1,621
Estie is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by wobbly View Post
AC was raised across the board because armour class is not valuable. An interesting decision to say the least.
If something is not valuable and you give everyone more, does it become more or less valuable?
If melee is not dangerous enough is the solution to make it safer or more dangerous?

Not sure you grasp the issue here. The objective is to make AC value a consideration (and not only resistances or other modifiers). So yes, if AC protects more from melee, it will be valued higher compared to, say, fire resistance. If you reduce AC, players will certainly not take it more into consideration.

The fact that melee damage plays a small role in the spectrum of dangers is a different matter entirely. While it might be a good idea to change that, it is not clear how that can be achieved without other (possibly unwanted) consequences.

The first obvious idea is to make phasing less available, but then this has always been a feature of Angband and it is unclear if that, in the end, really would make players want to wear heavier armour.

Back when Magnate made this change my idea was to make npc archers more impactful, effectively introducing physical ranged damge into the spectrum, against which armor class would help of course. As it stands, everything dangerous is magic and elemental.
Estie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 15, 2019, 14:48   #17
Werbaer
Adept
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 116
Werbaer is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparrow the Dunadan View Post
Right now I'm running a LVL 26 Dunadan Ranger (Sparrow) with a STR stat of 18. She is wearing Soft Leather Armor of Resist Fire [8, +6].

Should I be going for tougher armor at this point (ones with the -1 & -2 to hit penalty)?... meaning going for armors with higher than the overall [14] AC than my current armor provides, despite it Resist Fire protection ?
As a ranger (or mage, or mid-level priest) i don't care at all about armour class. You shouldn't be in melee with tough opponents. So any additional ability the armour provides is probably more valuable than AC.
Werbaer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 15, 2019, 15:12   #18
Grotug
Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 1,129
Grotug is on a distinguished road
Am I the only one who values AC around here? I always find it very puzzling when I read posts saying how unimportant AC is. I've won this game many times and I can tell you AC is a key part to winning. Absolutely essential. Yes, I prefer melee classes, but there are enough of those in the game and enough great melee weapons in the game to make meleeing a popular way to kill high value targets. The longer you can stand toe to toe without phasing, the less likely you will phase into more danger. I just don't understand this argument that AC isn't important! The mind boggles.... All my easiest wins are when I have 200+ AC.

Sure, it's true I'm not going to give up a base resist in the end game to get more AC, but I will, and do, give up high resists for more AC and speed if I can afford to (I will take 20 base speed over 23 or even 25 base speed for an increase of 30AC every time; speed armors are overrated unless you are hurt up for speed; of the dozen+ ego speed armors I've found I think I've worn an ego speed armor exactly zero times; and I don't just mean in the endgame or final fight; I mean any time I find a speed armor at any point in the game, I always have something better or enough speed elsewhere to make such a choice an inferior one).

As for why there isn't more ranged damage from missiles is a very good question and something I've wondered about from time to time. Sure seems like a good idea to at least try out some deep-dungeon enemies that fire 150 damage arrows repeatedly. You could have all sorts of different high level (native DL80+) ranged missile attack enemies, shooting all sorts of elemental missiles, even arrows dipped in chaos (that would be a seriously dangerous enemy if you don't have pConf where high AC could be super important). Missiles could even cause severe and mortal wounds. Could add a deep level Ranger unique that occasionally unleashes a barage of heavy hitting arrows. He could even have a special attack (and maybe @Rangers could get it as an end-game level spell, too). The spell would be called barage of arrows. Shoots three four or five arrows at once for like 80 mana.

And for those who say Angband doesn't need anymore super dangerous monsters that are auto-TO'd, might be fun to make a unique Ranger that knows how to use the terrain to their advantage for hockey stick positioning against @ so that @ can't just easily TO him everytime.

It's always been kind of frustrating that a high end ranger never gets 100% accuracy against low level monsters, and one of the more frustrating aspects of playing ranger. I understand mages are fragile and so they make up for that with 100% accuracy damage spells, but seems like rangers should at least gain 100% accuracy on lesser foes.
__________________
Detailed account of my Ironman win here.
Grotug is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 15, 2019, 17:08   #19
wobbly
Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Posts: 1,953
wobbly is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Estie View Post
Not sure you grasp the issue here. The objective is to make AC value a consideration (and not only resistances or other modifiers). So yes, if AC protects more from melee, it will be valued higher compared to, say, fire resistance.
Really? Because you listed a bunch of reasons why you don't value it, & I didn't see a lack of AC on the list. If armour is too heavy already it's still too heavy if you double the AC, triple the AC or quadruple the AC. Fact is that's helping the lighter armours more then the heavy armour. If light armour of rfire is sufficient AC already then that's even more the case if you raise the base standard. There's a reason the classes most likely to have use for an accuracy ring are the ones that had trouble hitting in the first place. The only way increasing the AC means decreasing the weight is if you can now get the same AC from a lighter set of armour.

Last edited by wobbly; April 15, 2019 at 17:14.
wobbly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 15, 2019, 17:41   #20
Derakon
Prophet
 
Derakon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 8,755
Derakon is on a distinguished road
The old AC rescaling wasn't just "multiply the numbers on armor and then reduce the effectiveness of the numbers in the code." It actually changed the effectiveness of armor in terms of mitigating damage from melee.

Is it worth taking a -2 penalty to speed in the early game if you can become borderline immune to melee in consequence? Because I've had that happen, through a lucky drop of adamantine armor in the early game, before the AC rescaling happened.

AC has three main problems, in my view. First is the fact that there are an awful lot of attacks that bypass AC's damage-reduction abilities (though IIRC it still helps in keeping you from getting hit in the first place). Not just spells and breath weapons: lots of melee attacks also do full damage regardless of AC. I think pretty much any attack that does not use the hit/claw/bite/kick/crush verbs ignores AC. Moreover, most attacks that have special effects on them ignore AC -- so that Greater Titan's ridiculously punishing hit-to-confuse melee gets through completely unabated.

The second issue is that the community has a bad habit of viewing abilities in a very binary fashion. Does it prevent you from getting one-shot? It has value. If it doesn't, then it doesn't matter. In that lens, an AC boost that reduces the damage you take in melee from Morgoth by, say, 100 per round, isn't particularly meaningful. But if you go from needing to heal every 3 rounds to needing to heal every 4, that's a significant improvement in your action economy.

And finally, it's just plain hard to tell what difference AC is making for you. The game doesn't tell you anything at all about the damage reduction it gives you, nor which attacks are affected by it. You can learn your chance to be hit, but it's hard to tell how much improving your AC would affect that.
Derakon is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Mage armor encumberance PowerWyrm Vanilla 32 October 11, 2015 01:41
Level 31 Mage, which armor to use??? Freddo AAR 7 March 16, 2015 15:20
encumbering armor quarague Vanilla 5 July 15, 2012 17:21
Randart armor. Faerandir Vanilla 3 December 8, 2010 08:22
Test-Id for armor Donald Jonker Vanilla 3 May 20, 2009 10:00


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:27.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.