Angband.oook.cz
Angband.oook.cz
AboutVariantsLadderForumCompetitionComicScreenshotsFunniesLinks

Go Back   Angband Forums > Angband > Vanilla

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old May 30, 2011, 10:45   #11
Magnate
Angband Devteam member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: London, UK
Posts: 5,057
Magnate is on a distinguished road
Send a message via MSN to Magnate Send a message via Yahoo to Magnate
Quote:
Originally Posted by jens View Post
I guess I'm not as careful as you are... Every time I've decided to leave resistance holes I've eventually died from it.
If it makes you feel any better, the only people who argue that resistances are overrated are very very experienced and very very skilled players. It may be true for them, but the rest of us tend to have similar experiences to yours.

That doesn't mean that DSM of Speed will survive though. I'd like to just make it ultra-rare, but I'll need the statistics to convince people of that ...
Magnate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 30, 2011, 10:58   #12
jens
Swordsman
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Göteborg, Sweden
Posts: 348
jens is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnate View Post
If it makes you feel any better, the only people who argue that resistances are overrated are very very experienced and very very skilled players. It may be true for them, but the rest of us tend to have similar experiences to yours.
Reading accounts of some players usually playing 15 min per session hints at what I could do to increase my survivability, but 15 min sessions is not my thing ;-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnate View Post
That doesn't mean that DSM of Speed will survive though. I'd like to just make it ultra-rare, but I'll need the statistics to convince people of that ...
As Zikke said, I don't find them unbalanced. I like to look at them, but then I choose something with more recistances instead... On the other hand I think the game drops too much DSM, and way too many of them are ego. Also I don't really think that 'of speed' fits thematically on DSM...
jens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 30, 2011, 11:37   #13
Magnate
Angband Devteam member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: London, UK
Posts: 5,057
Magnate is on a distinguished road
Send a message via MSN to Magnate Send a message via Yahoo to Magnate
Quote:
Originally Posted by jens View Post
As Zikke said, I don't find them unbalanced. I like to look at them, but then I choose something with more recistances instead... On the other hand I think the game drops too much DSM, and way too many of them are ego. Also I don't really think that 'of speed' fits thematically on DSM...
Well, there are three different issues there. Too much DSM is not a widely-reported problem, but may be the case. Soon there will be stats which can verify it. Too many DSMs being egos is very well known but I'm not sure if it can be fixed easily - I'm hoping to do some work on ego generation for 3.4 but I haven't thought of a quick fix in the meantime. Speed not being in-theme is debatable - you've never seen any fast dragons?

But like I said, I fully expect takkaria to want it removed altogether (along with Permanence). This may mean that ego DSMs are removed for 3.3 and return in 3.4.
Magnate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 30, 2011, 11:40   #14
jens
Swordsman
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Göteborg, Sweden
Posts: 348
jens is on a distinguished road
Reducing the commonality of DSM's will reduce the commonality of Ego DSM's...
jens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 30, 2011, 11:49   #15
Magnate
Angband Devteam member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: London, UK
Posts: 5,057
Magnate is on a distinguished road
Send a message via MSN to Magnate Send a message via Yahoo to Magnate
Quote:
Originally Posted by jens View Post
Reducing the commonality of DSM's will reduce the commonality of Ego DSM's...
True, but I think the problem is more subtle than that, as not many people have reported there being too many DSMs. Compare them with swords: there are plenty of swords dropped (about the right number, maybe) and not many of them are egos (again, perhaps it's about right, for the sake of example). With DSMs there seems to be a far higher proportion turning into egos. I don't actually understand why this would be, so it's hard to fix. In the meantime I'm working on the stats collection, so I can see the impact of any changes I make before people complain that they weren't tested properly!
Magnate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 30, 2011, 12:16   #16
jens
Swordsman
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Göteborg, Sweden
Posts: 348
jens is on a distinguished road
Might it just be that by the depth were DSMs are common, there is a much higher probability of generating 'great' drops, thus giving the impression that any drop of a DSM has a high probability of being an ego? If this is the case, and no bug is invloved I see two solutions:

1) Decrease the commonality of DSM.

2) Rebalance the ego types for DSM so the powerful ones only show up rarely.

3) hmm, thought of a quick-fix: Create a new ego type that only applies to DSM, has no bonuses, "" as name, and has rarity 1. Or maybe a bit better, a not too useful ego type, but serving the same purposes... I have worked quite a lot with making ego types, one I made that would fit here is 'of Craftmanship' that removes the to-hit penalty, ignores acid, gives a small boost in AC, and sets a minimum for AC. In the case of DSMs this would just mean a small boost of AC.
jens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 30, 2011, 12:19   #17
Magnate
Angband Devteam member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: London, UK
Posts: 5,057
Magnate is on a distinguished road
Send a message via MSN to Magnate Send a message via Yahoo to Magnate
Quote:
Originally Posted by jens View Post
Might it just be that by the depth were DSMs are common, there is a much higher probability of generating 'great' drops, thus giving the impression that any drop of a DSM has a high probability of being an ego? If this is the case, and no bug is invloved I see two solutions:

1) Decrease the commonality of DSM.

2) Rebalance the ego types for DSM so the powerful ones only show up rarely.

3) hmm, thought of a quick-fix: Create a new ego type that only applies to DSM, has no bonuses, "" as name, and has rarity 1. Or maybe a bit better, a not too useful ego type, but serving the same purposes... I have worked quite a lot with making ego types, one I made that would fit here is 'of Craftmanship' that removes the to-hit penalty, ignores acid, gives a small boost in AC, and sets a minimum for AC. In the case of DSMs this would just mean a small boost of AC.
This last is a nice idea - do you have a version of ego_item.txt anywhere which has this new ego in it? As you say, this would allow a quick fix for toning down the number of powerful ego DSMs without needing to mess with actual ego generation. Also fits thematically as anyone bothering to make armour out of dragon scales ought to be pretty good at it ...
Magnate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 30, 2011, 12:28   #18
Timo Pietilä
Prophet
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Climbing up from hole I just dug.
Posts: 4,096
Timo Pietilä is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by jens View Post
I guess I'm not as careful as you are... Every time I've decided to leave resistance holes I've eventually died from it.
That's probably because you have learned to trust to them. Besides basic4 and poison it is the side-effects that kill you, not the actual damage from element. For example nether does 550 max unresisted and 471 max resisted. You can't afford trusting that resistance saves you when the difference is that small.

Try not to gather all the resistances and just avoid heavy resistance hole breathers and you get a lot better a lot faster in the game. This isn't very difficult game to win when you have learned the right things, it just takes time to unlearn the wrong things.
Timo Pietilä is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 30, 2011, 12:50   #19
Antoine
Ironband/Quickband Maintainer
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,008
Antoine is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnate View Post
This last is a nice idea - do you have a version of ego_item.txt anywhere which has this new ego in it? As you say, this would allow a quick fix for toning down the number of powerful ego DSMs without needing to mess with actual ego generation. Also fits thematically as anyone bothering to make armour out of dragon scales ought to be pretty good at it ...
Not sure about Craftmanship.

How about calling it "of the Serpent" or similar, and giving it some minor features like Slow Digestion and the Dwarven detect-nearby-treasure racial ability?

Then you could add another one, "of Flight", for a small Dex bonus and Feather Fall.

A.
__________________
Ironband - http://angband.oook.cz/ironband/
Antoine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 30, 2011, 15:19   #20
jens
Swordsman
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Göteborg, Sweden
Posts: 348
jens is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnate View Post
This last is a nice idea - do you have a version of ego_item.txt anywhere which has this new ego in it? As you say, this would allow a quick fix for toning down the number of powerful ego DSMs without needing to mess with actual ego generation. Also fits thematically as anyone bothering to make armour out of dragon scales ought to be pretty good at it ...
I have a version of 'ego_item.txt' with it in, but I have added some more ego items, and tweaked just about every rarity, so I prefer to just give you the entry itself :-)

The idea with my 'of Craftmanship' items is that I found most of the 'resist xxx' to be quite boring, so the main idea is that these should be used early. I also like the idea of several different object kinds having the same ego type, and you can include 3 'T:' flags so I use that. They are also ment to be useful early, but not show up too much later in the game, so in these original versions I mostly include the earlier armor sorts. About the numbering: I have used up just about all the empty slots in the ego file, these just fit best at Nr 1 and 2 :-)

Code:
# 1 (unused)
# Boot/Glove/Helm
N:1:of Craftmanship
X:7:0
W:0:3:0:500
C:0:0:1d4M4:0
M:0:0:4:0
T:30:1:4
T:31:1:2
T:32:2:6
F:IGNORE_ACID

# 2 (unused)
# Shield/Armor
N:2:of Craftmanship
X:7:0
W:0:3:0:500
C:0:0:1d6M6:0
M:0:0:6:0
T:34:1:5
T:36:0:99
T:37:1:4
F:IGNORE_ACID
Some comments:
The 'M:' flag is a very nice flag, that is used way to little (only 2 launchers have it). What it does is set minimum values for tohit, todam, ac, and pval. I guess that the main reason for it's scarcity is that adding it too early in the file introduces a bug so that no ego armor gets negative tohit. But now in the nightlies that bug is invoked all the time, so there's no problem in using it anymore ;-)

To add DSM to the list of items just add something like:
T:38:0:99
and remove one of the other lines, or if you don't want it on other items, all of them... or add a third version, with adjusted rarity and a bit more boost to ac:

Code:
# 3 (unused)
# Dragon Scale Armor
N:3:of Craftmanship
X:7:0
W:0:1:0:500
C:0:0:1d8M8:0
M:0:0:8:0
T:38:0:99
F:IGNORE_ACID
And I guess the Ignore_acid is unneccesary here...
jens is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
T-Engine4 / ToME4 beta25 aka "Terror of the Woods" unleashed! DarkGod ToME 0 April 19, 2011 18:12
"mixed blessing" items and speed question GreyWolf Vanilla 2 January 13, 2011 11:22
T-Engine4 / ToME4 beta16 "World Wide Tome" unleashed! DarkGod ToME 1 December 24, 2010 23:29
"Great" drops replaced by "good" drops in vaults: bug or feature? PowerWyrm Vanilla 14 February 27, 2010 16:54
"repeat" Command just little bit "smarter" ClaytonAguiar Vanilla 8 June 17, 2009 16:01


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:20.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.