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Old June 1, 2011, 01:56   #1
Timo Pietilš
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Feelings about recent "development"

Hello all devs and maintainer.

With all the changes game is going thru I have a feeling that vanilla angband stopped being vanilla angband in 3.2 and now people are developing a variant and vanilla angband is no longer maintained. Too many changes with too little testing and too few opinions asked. That's no longer community-based development, it is few people shared view variant development.

Takkaria, I think you are still maintainer, right? Stop this madness. For a year or so after 3.3 is released freeze the development and allow only bug fixes. It feels like Robert was the last maintainer, not you. Now things have been taken over by committee that does whatever they feel like doing.

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Old June 1, 2011, 02:00   #2
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Originally Posted by Timo Pietilš View Post
Hello all devs and maintainer.
Hi Timo!
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Old June 1, 2011, 02:03   #3
Timo Pietilš
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Hi Timo!
For some reason forum decided to submit when I clicked the edit screen with mouse in order to get back to it after accidental tab-pressing.
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Old June 1, 2011, 02:34   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timo Pietilš View Post
Hello all devs and maintainer.

With all the changes game is going thru I have a feeling that vanilla angband stopped being vanilla angband in 3.2 and now people are developing a variant and vanilla angband is no longer maintained. Too many changes with too little testing and too few opinions asked. That's no longer community-based development, it is few people shared view variant development.

Takkaria, I think you are still maintainer, right? Stop this madness. For a year or so after 3.3 is released freeze the development and allow only bug fixes. It feels like Robert was the last maintainer, not you. Now things have been taken over by committee that does whatever they feel like doing.
Greetings,

I share your feelings, but only half way. A very good read by Takkaria in the beginning was whether the maintainer should maintain or develop. And since only maintaining is dreadfully boring and not rewarding, it was ventured that there should be maintenance plus development ( evolution ).

This has resulted in Angband being awesome on Macs, something that hasnt really been the case since a long time ( never ? ). This has also resulted in some great separation of game/ui/logic. It also has resulted in a slew of warnings the maintainers conveniently turned off, no easy way of natively compiling on Windows and it would seem a greater number of Angband players.

All in all that seems like a win.

For the minority of fogeys like you and I there most certainly is a loss, but I guess once the fog clears we can always make a true Vanilla variant that stays game-wise where robert left it ( although I never liked the kobold race myself )

On a remotely connected side note, please do keep giving your feedback on this game, I think you are the most active/experienced/crazygood player we have and your words have weight.

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Old June 1, 2011, 03:31   #5
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I'm pretty confident that Takkaria has a say in everything that's going into the mainline branch. So basically what we have is a bunch of developers each working on their own minor variants, whose changes periodically get merged back into mainline on Takkaria's say-so. It's probably not quite that strict, but you get the idea.

Nobody's going to be interested in being a maintainer of the game if they don't get to tweak things, so expecting development to basically halt for a year to let the game stabilize seems unrealistic to me. As usual, if you don't like the current version of Vanilla, then please say so (with specifics, ideally) -- but there's also the previous versions, which are still perfectly good games in their own rights.
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Old June 1, 2011, 03:45   #6
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I've said it before and I'll say it again, just call it V+.

Vanilla should be maintained. Variants should be developed.
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Old June 1, 2011, 04:02   #7
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Nobody's going to be interested in being a maintainer of the game if they don't get to tweak things, so expecting development to basically halt for a year to let the game stabilize seems unrealistic to me.
I agree with this -- I see most of the current work as revisiting Angband gameplay elements that have been with the game for a long time, but aren't necessarily good ideas. Now, some kinds of changes may make things worse, but I think we still need to look for what can improve the game.
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Old June 1, 2011, 04:04   #8
Timo Pietilš
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Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
Nobody's going to be interested in being a maintainer of the game if they don't get to tweak things, so expecting development to basically halt for a year to let the game stabilize seems unrealistic to me. As usual, if you don't like the current version of Vanilla, then please say so (with specifics, ideally) -- but there's also the previous versions, which are still perfectly good games in their own rights.
It's not the changes themselves necessary, it is the pace of the change. I not had yet time to get to know 3.2 well enough to pinpoint where potential problems are or what could be done better, and 3.3 is like entirely different game. It is scary. It takes that year to experiment all the changes fully.

There is no point to make changes in sake of change. Don't fix things that are not broken, that's the basic rule to keep things working. To me it looks like new features creep in too easily, way too many things are changing and they all would need to work together which is plain impossibility without decent playtesting. It feels this rate of change is just disaster in making.
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Old June 1, 2011, 04:06   #9
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I agree with this -- I see most of the current work as revisiting Angband gameplay elements that have been with the game for a long time, but aren't necessarily good ideas. Now, some kinds of changes may make things worse, but I think we still need to look for what can improve the game.
How do you propose to do that if there is practically no playtesting whatsoever? Few games is not enough to get any feeling of the complete picture.
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Old June 1, 2011, 05:21   #10
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How do you propose to do that if there is practically no playtesting whatsoever? Few games is not enough to get any feeling of the complete picture.
Isn't that why we have development releases in the first place, so we can test things and try to revert them?

(I wouldn't mind bugfixes being applied to the stable release a bit more often though -- isn't the most recent release still Angband the Game of Shoes?)
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