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Old October 13, 2011, 20:48   #11
nppangband
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnate View Post
(I also like the pseudo-graphic symbols used in Sangband btw - I wonder if Leon created his own font.)
Yes, a group of 4 of us did (although my contribution was only about 5% of the total group effort). We created the custom fonts used with the xchar patch (recently replace by UTF-8). I think Diego (NPP co-maintainer) and Leon made the actual fonts with the pseudo graphics for doors and things of that nature. We lifted the idea for pseudo-graphics from TOME.
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Old October 13, 2011, 20:56   #12
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A few thoughts on richer graphics:

- when looking at your proposal it is overwhelming (positively), but soon it appears that this lacks something… It is animation. Those images crosses border between symbolic tiles and more realistic ones.
- During gameplay there are a lot of monsters – A LOT of them. Having simple symbols (characters or small, crispy iconic images) do not overload you with information.
- bigger tiles, with more details (distracting?) when you have a lot of information – monsters, items, etc is not good I think
- skewed tiles makes dungeon grid not clear. When I’m looking at you picture, it is not clear on first sight what part of stairs belongs to what tile? Is top of stairs hide part of above tile, or whole stairs are single tile?
- monsters that are higher than 1 tile make something similar as above stairs

Your proposal would be fine when we would have about 10% of current mosters :-)

Of course after a few games with new look everyone woulod get used.

Generally I like your proposal, those images are really nice - resembles me cRPG that I've played years ago... :-) I only think that havy-monster/details specific of Angband (and seems that roguelikes in general) makes it not most egronomic.
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Old October 13, 2011, 20:58   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nppangband View Post
Yes, a group of 4 of us did (although my contribution was only about 5% of the total group effort). We created the custom fonts used with the xchar patch (recently replace by UTF-8). I think Diego (NPP co-maintainer) and Leon made the actual fonts with the pseudo graphics for doors and things of that nature. We lifted the idea for pseudo-graphics from TOME.
Those are really nice. Is there any way to use those pseudo-graphic characters in UTF-8? (Sorry, I'm an ignoramus about fonts and glyphs and code-points and suchlike.)
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Old October 13, 2011, 22:55   #14
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Those are really nice. Is there any way to use those pseudo-graphic characters in UTF-8? (Sorry, I'm an ignoramus about fonts and glyphs and code-points and suchlike.)
What we did with the xchar patch was we stored some of them in the lower part of the ASCII that doesn't have actual character representations (0-31, the space is #32 and then the standard english keyboard and alphabet is represented from there. I am sure the same thing can be done with the new UTF-8 fonts, since I understand it 0-127 is identical in ASCII and UTF-8. I don't remember the actual code hack that we did to display them on screen, however. I think that code support may have been wiped out of vanilla when UTF-8 was implemented.
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Old October 14, 2011, 02:46   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nppangband View Post
What we did with the xchar patch was we stored some of them in the lower part of the ASCII that doesn't have actual character representations (0-31, the space is #32 and then the standard english keyboard and alphabet is represented from there. I am sure the same thing can be done with the new UTF-8 fonts, since I understand it 0-127 is identical in ASCII and UTF-8. I don't remember the actual code hack that we did to display them on screen, however. I think that code support may have been wiped out of vanilla when UTF-8 was implemented.
This is also the method that I copied (via Leon's instructions) to make some of the fonts that Vanilla currently has.

My understanding of the move to UTF-8 is that we'll have more glyphs to choose from than we can poke a stick at, and would be able to move away from having Angband fonts (which would solve a raft of problems).

I hope if I'm wrong someone more knowledgeable will shoot me down. Be as brutal as you like.
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Old October 14, 2011, 05:39   #16
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This covers at least some of it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicode_symbols

... and then of course there's the (almost?) every-character-can-be-accented thing which could be used for any number of things: Showing status effects, distinguishing between normal/greater monster types, etc.
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Old October 14, 2011, 10:02   #17
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My understanding of the move to UTF-8 is that we'll have more glyphs to choose from than we can poke a stick at, and would be able to move away from having Angband fonts (which would solve a raft of problems).
This is what I was getting at. I don't know much about these things, but I do know that ASCII only has about 255 characters, lots of which aren't printable (linefeeds and the like). Whereas Unicode has about a bazillion, so surely we can just add the neat glyphs Jeff and co created onto an existing Unicode font and use them? (I guess we need them in different sizes.)
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Old October 14, 2011, 14:33   #18
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Originally Posted by Magnate View Post
This is what I was getting at. I don't know much about these things, but I do know that ASCII only has about 255 characters, lots of which aren't printable (linefeeds and the like). Whereas Unicode has about a bazillion, so surely we can just add the neat glyphs Jeff and co created onto an existing Unicode font and use them? (I guess we need them in different sizes.)
Correct. With UTF-8 we should have access to many symbols, but I don't know if even unicode has open and closed doors, etc....

But first, can we separate the symbols for rods and wands, and use different letters so we can see the difference between dragons /great wyrms, or medium dragons and baby dragons.
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Old October 14, 2011, 21:03   #19
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Originally Posted by nppangband View Post
Correct. With UTF-8 we should have access to many symbols, but I don't know if even unicode has open and closed doors, etc....

But first, can we separate the symbols for rods and wands, and use different letters so we can see the difference between dragons /great wyrms, or medium dragons and baby dragons.
Definitely. Opened as #1555.
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Old October 15, 2011, 00:08   #20
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Correct. With UTF-8 we should have access to many symbols, but I don't know if even unicode has open and closed doors, etc....
In addition to AnonymousHero's link, here is a big page of symbols - I don't know how complete it is, and a lot of them don't display in my browser (I'm a unicode n00b).

I think trying to use just standard unicode fonts would be far preferable to adding glyphs and shipping fonts; I just hope it's possible.
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