angband 3.4 plx no spaghetti

[Therem Harth]

Personally I've always hated Banishment, and I fervently hope that someone can arrive at a reasonable way of removing it entirely from the game. It just feels silly to me - gives the player character too much control over the game's universe, IMO.

I think better terrain management spells would help... ToME 2 for instance had a spell called Stone Prison, which would raise stone walls on every space adjacent to the player character - or, at higher levels, every space adjacent to a targeted monster. You could then dig through the wall to expose yourself to only one monster at a time.

[Derakon]

Originally Posted by Therem Harth

I think better terrain management spells would help... ToME 2 for instance had a spell called Stone Prison, which would raise stone walls on every space adjacent to the player character - or, at higher levels, every space adjacent to a targeted monster. You could then dig through the wall to expose yourself to only one monster at a time.

And the spell was thus horrifically cheesy. Create Doors is a powerful spell, but it is at least balanced by the fact that practically every monster can move through the doors. Being able to create walls at will is far worse.

Moria used to have a Wand of Wall Building, which shot out a line of walls in the chosen direction. It didn't make it to Angband, and frankly I'm not surprised.

That said, how would you feel about removing the scrolls and staves of Banishment / Mass Banishment from the game? That would just leave us with the mage's spell, which as fizzix mentioned is basically the reward for keeping a mage alive to find Kelek's.

[Malak Darkhunter]

Originally Posted by Derakon

And the spell was thus horrifically cheesy. Create Doors is a powerful spell, but it is at least balanced by the fact that practically every monster can move through the doors. Being able to create walls at will is far worse.

Moria used to have a Wand of Wall Building, which shot out a line of walls in the chosen direction. It didn't make it to Angband, and frankly I'm not surprised.

That said, how would you feel about removing the scrolls and staves of Banishment / Mass Banishment from the game? That would just leave us with the mage's spell, which as fizzix mentioned is basically the reward for keeping a mage alive to find Kelek's.

I think having wands of wall building would be fair, you fight uniques that can summon high powererd minions and chase you around the level, why not have a wand of wall building to split them up and trap them, wands of wall building were fun, put those in and get rid of banishment.

[Therem Harth]

Originally Posted by Derakon

And the spell was thus horrifically cheesy. Create Doors is a powerful spell, but it is at least balanced by the fact that practically every monster can move through the doors. Being able to create walls at will is far worse.

Horrifically cheesy, but better IMO than waving your hands and making a bunch of Wyrms just disappear (at the price of X hitpoints).

Moria used to have a Wand of Wall Building, which shot out a line of walls in the chosen direction. It didn't make it to Angband, and frankly I'm not surprised.

That said, how would you feel about removing the scrolls and staves of Banishment / Mass Banishment from the game? That would just leave us with the mage's spell, which as fizzix mentioned is basically the reward for keeping a mage alive to find Kelek's.

I would first ask around to see how people felt about that and warriors.

[Malak Darkhunter]

Originally Posted by Therem Harth

Horrifically cheesy, but better IMO than waving your hands and making a bunch of Wyrms just disappear (at the price of X hitpoints).



I would first ask around to see how people felt about that and warriors.

I want to possibly ask a i know maybe rhetorical question, I love warriors but I also love priests, I still think warriors get the shaft on the end game, so my question is this, besides more hp's what actual advantage is their to playing warriors over a spell caster? They both do some massive end game melee, a mage with right equipment can duke it out just like a warrior towards end game with the advantage of spells, a warrior with his hp's can just duke it out a few more rounds longer and then poof he had better run or drink a potion, or teleother. a spellcaster can call upon some spells as well as drink potion teleport other/ So what are the advantages other than hp's? Spellcasters have more options and potential resistances they can call upon or banish evil/ heal/ blink/ cast resistance and be covered if your missing any, warriors can't do that.

[d_m]

Warriors get more HP, higher max strength and constitution, an extra blow (warriors max out at 6, mages at 4, the rest at 5), and fear immunity.

I don't agree at all about endgame. (IMO) the point where warriors suffer is the in the midgame before they've found the right items (detection, escape, teleport other, etc). Once the warrior has those things they do very well.

Of course, the play style is different and they do have to focus on saving up consumables, but overall it's not a huge problem, and of course the extra HP are a huge bonus.

[Derakon]

The extra HP the warrior has are their single biggest feature; they get a whopping +9 to their hit die; paladins and rogues are at +6, rangers at +4, priests +2, mages +0. Functionally this means a warrior has ~225 more hitpoints than a mage at the endgame, all else being equal. But all else is probably not equal, because warriors are also free to ignore INT and WIS and thus can pile on more CON-boosting gear.

Besides that, warriors have the best melee skill in the game, and the second-best archery skill; they'll hit more often. And of course they have the best STR so, for what that's worth, they'll hit harder too.

I'm inclined to agree with d_m; warriors come roaring out of the gate, hit a slump once they reach the point that they can't just slaughter everything in their path but they don't have the abilities to avoid the dangerous stuff, and then hit a solid middle game once they have Detection rods and telepathy. They're far from the easiest endgame (that's almost certainly priests) but they also don't have the hardest (rogues, I'd guess? Maybe mages?).

[Malak Darkhunter]

Originally Posted by Derakon

The extra HP the warrior has are their single biggest feature; they get a whopping +9 to their hit die; paladins and rogues are at +6, rangers at +4, priests +2, mages +0. Functionally this means a warrior has ~225 more hitpoints than a mage at the endgame, all else being equal. But all else is probably not equal, because warriors are also free to ignore INT and WIS and thus can pile on more CON-boosting gear.

Besides that, warriors have the best melee skill in the game, and the second-best archery skill; they'll hit more often. And of course they have the best STR so, for what that's worth, they'll hit harder too.

I'm inclined to agree with d_m; warriors come roaring out of the gate, hit a slump once they reach the point that they can't just slaughter everything in their path but they don't have the abilities to avoid the dangerous stuff, and then hit a solid middle game once they have Detection rods and telepathy. They're far from the easiest endgame (that's almost certainly priests) but they also don't have the hardest (rogues, I'd guess? Maybe mages?).

The biggest problem with warriors that I'm running into with warriors is adequate healing, they take a lot to keep going, and not trying to kill everything in sight but to polish off those uniques before facing morgoth. healing potions seem to be much rarer now, and the biggest thing I disagree with is stores start selling less stuff once you reach deep dungeon levels, and you cannot replace your consumables very easily, your feeling it bad both ways, I had 2 here lately get around level 90 and just not being able to keep healed up to fight. But I'm sure your better with warriors than I am, I know you've beat it with warriors, priests I can tell you all about, had a NPP rogue once, and honestly he was pretty powerful, mages-never got much farther than about CL20 or so, not my playstyle, but hope to invest some time into 1 soon. Had a Sangband necromancer winner wich was the most powerful character I've ever had, truly unstopable, but Sang is different.

On a side note never tried a warrior before V 3.3.2 wonder what the difference is on older versions like 3.0.6 or earlier?

[fizzix]

Originally Posted by Malak Darkhunter

healing potions seem to be much rarer now.

I don't think this is true. Or at least I think healing potions are more common in 3.3 and 3.4 than they were in the past. Magnate can probably query the stats database and answer this for certain.

stores start selling less stuff once you reach deep dungeon levels, and you cannot replace your consumables very easily

As far as I am aware, there haven't been any changes to consumable availability besides limiting stack size to 40 in 3.4. The only changes were availabilities of ego weapons/armors in the non-BM shops. !CCW should still show up just as often as it always did.

[Derakon]

If your dungeon trips take a fixed number of player turns, then as your speed increases, the number of restocks the town will perform per dungeon trip will decrease -- town restocks happen every 10k game turns, which is 1k normal-speed turns but 2k +10-speed turns.

So I guess if you're making short dungeon trips with a high-speed character, then restocking could be an issue. But vital supplies should show up in high-enough quantities that they won't run out. What exactly are you short on? If it's healing items, then yes, learning when to spend them and when to save them is fairly important. Potions of Healing are for unique-killing; potions of *Healing* and Life are for Sauron and Morgoth. However, not all uniques are worth killing...