Sil 1.0.2

[Scatha]

Originally Posted by WaveMotion

I find myself occasionally annoyed by Mewlips' map-amnesia effect, which I believe to be an interface problem. A similar effect was removed from Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup because it made it optimal to take screenshots of the level in order to negate the in-game effect. Although I wouldn't suggest that Sil devs should do something just because Crawl did it, the same argument applies equally well for both games, since it's simple for me to take a screenshot of the level whenever I encounter an amnesia-causing creature. Removal of the amnesia effect would improve Sil's interface, and I don't think the game would suffer much from the loss of a feature. Mewlips are more interesting for their fear effect anyway. Thoughts?

It is a valid point that there is a cost to this amnesia (and a similar but smaller one with herbs of rage). That said, I think you're overstating the case somewhat for removing the memory wiping.

The main difference between the costs in the two games is that Crawl has persistent levels, which will make loss of map much more annoying than in Sil, which does not. We considered having Mewlips make you forget the flavours of items that you'd discovered, but rejected this for similar reasons to Crawl's amnesia-removal: it would be very annoying and really encourage the player to make external notes on their discoveries.

The memory wiping in Sil is a much more local effect, and more cosmetic than anything else, since the levels at that depth are not vast, and you will normally have a reasonable impression remaining of how things connected and where the stairs are, but perhaps be unable to recall precise details. Its benefit is that it feels cool and exciting rather than that it produces particularly interesting choices (whereas a lot of the game is geared towards those interesting choices).

Now, that isn't a huge benefit, but it's a pretty small cost, too. My feeling is that the size of the benefit outweighs the cost (but I could be wrong).

By the way, I suspect you are making the annoyance larger by taking screenshots (if you are in fact doing so). My guess is that you would enjoy it more with the added challenge of not using screenshots or other memory aids to record the dungeon on encountering a Mewlip (and this is how it is intended to be approached). Most of the time you're likely to find you lose nothing except cumbersome computer interaction; occasionally you may misremember and dive into the wrong corridor, and this could get you killed, but that's actually pretty cool if you can conceive this as a valid effect of the memory-wiping rather than an annoyance that only happened because you couldn't be bothered to screenshot-scum.

Does that begin to persuade you?

[debo]

Originally Posted by WaveMotion

Hey guys, still having fun with this game—haven't played any other since I found it a couple of months ago.

I find myself occasionally annoyed by Mewlips' map-amnesia effect, which I believe to be an interface problem. A similar effect was removed from Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup because it made it optimal to take screenshots of the level in order to negate the in-game effect. Although I wouldn't suggest that Sil devs should do something just because Crawl did it, the same argument applies equally well for both games, since it's simple for me to take a screenshot of the level whenever I encounter an amnesia-causing creature. Removal of the amnesia effect would improve Sil's interface, and I don't think the game would suffer much from the loss of a feature. Mewlips are more interesting for their fear effect anyway. Thoughts?

Amnesia is interesting to me in Sil b/c there are no escapes. I've died a couple of times because I was fleeing from a pack of orcs to a staircase, and a mewlip wiped my memory, thus causing me to lose my way. I think that's pretty neat.

For myself, I'd equate screenshotting to savescumming, since my memory is awful I probably wouldn't feel comfortable posting a character where I used screenshotting to dodge mewlips (or dragons, which are much worse).

I'd be sad if this feature was removed from the game.

[jujuben]

Also, mewlips and gorcrows hang out at similar depths, giving rise to the rather awesome (if slightly annoying) dying @ in a blank black screen...

[Philip]

Could something be done about the overabundance of orc soldiers(the gray ones) at 50 feet? I understand that if you go up on the first staircases you find, there should be a pack guarding the forge and a pack or so on the level, but this is the third time in very short succesion that I've been slaughtered on dlevel 1, sometimes even one without a forge.

[half]

Originally Posted by WaveMotion

I find myself occasionally annoyed by Mewlips' map-amnesia effect, which I believe to be an interface problem.

Like Scatha, I'm sympathetic to this idea (and it is indeed why there is no object-flavour amnesia in Sil), but think that the advantages significantly outweigh the disadvantages. For reference, there are some pretty major games that involve such a memory/interface issue, such as Bridge (and almost all other card games), and many modern board games by very good designers (such as Reiner Knizia).

[WaveMotion]

Originally Posted by Scatha

By the way, I suspect you are making the annoyance larger by taking screenshots (if you are in fact doing so). My guess is that you would enjoy it more with the added challenge of not using screenshots or other memory aids to record the dungeon on encountering a Mewlip (and this is how it is intended to be approached). Most of the time you're likely to find you lose nothing except cumbersome computer interaction; occasionally you may misremember and dive into the wrong corridor, and this could get you killed, but that's actually pretty cool if you can conceive this as a valid effect of the memory-wiping rather than an annoyance that only happened because you couldn't be bothered to screenshot-scum.

Does that begin to persuade you?

I probably overstated my annoyance with the feature! I wasn't ever really taking screenshots; I just mentioned that behavior as a tedious optimum in a theoretical sense. I've since realized that what I find iffy is the conflation between player memory and character memory, but that's a matter of personal taste, and nothing I can't be cool with. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

[T-Mick]

It sounds like everyone wants this game to be easier. I say, if you can make it harder, while still maintaining balance, go for it.

[jujuben]

Hrm... The more I think about it, the more I'm thinking that giving the big V (or an ascent only escort of some sort) a beefed up (enough to hit average-will @s on a semi regular basis, and highish will @s if they're really unlucky, but leave will specialists alone) version on 2 or 3 Silmaril ascents could make for some really... interesting... gameplay.

Sure it's a bit sadistic, but major victories are supposed to be hard.

[debo]

Originally Posted by jujuben

Hrm... The more I think about it, the more I'm thinking that giving the big V (or an ascent only escort of some sort) a beefed up (enough to hit average-will @s on a semi regular basis, and highish will @s if they're really unlucky, but leave will specialists alone) version on 2 or 3 Silmaril ascents could make for some really... interesting... gameplay.

Sure it's a bit sadistic, but major victories are supposed to be hard.

You'd have to beef everything about V to make that work. High will + majesty makes him flee; and w 25+ stealth, I'm willing to bet that he will never, ever see you.

[debo]

Originally Posted by T-Mick

It sounds like everyone wants this game to be easier. I say, if you can make it harder, while still maintaining balance, go for it.

Isn't that what the "lesser" races are for?