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Old July 22, 2012, 12:11   #1
quarague
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late game monster

I finally got a char who is in his late 40 level wise and approaching dungeon level 100, a half troll paladin. I noticed that since about -2500 all stronger monsters (say 10k xp or more) unique or not seem to follow the same pattern.
First their ranged attacks are much stronger than their melee attack. They usually do a few hundred points of damage with a ranged attack inspite of me resisting it but in melee often they do no damage at all and if they hit it is for 50 to 100 hitpoints. Second, summoning is the only attack that is any real danger. If a monster can't summon it is essentially harmless, I only have to get into melee range. If it can summon I go into melee range, if it summons little or harmless things I can defeat it, otherwise I run away and try my luck again later.
My ranged attack does about the same amount of damage as melee but if I'm not in melee range monsters will mostly use their ranged attack which is much more dangerous than melee. Using magic attacks from spells or items is mostly pointless because it deals so little damage. No real point in hitting a monster with few thousand hit points for 100 or 150 damage with some bolt or ball spell.
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Old July 22, 2012, 13:01   #2
debo
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You more or less have it right.

With summoning uniques, or difficult packs of monsters in general, learn to dig an "anti-summoning" corridor in the dungeon wall.

This involves creating a zig-zag tunnel like this:

Code:
X X X
 X X
and then scooting to the back of it. This way, summoned creatures can only attack you from one square, and will only be summoned into spaces behind the unique.

Battles against uniques in angband tend to be somewhat repetitive for each character type, with a few exceptions (with Morgoth being the most different, IMO).
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Old July 22, 2012, 22:11   #3
donalde
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Only problem are with disenchanting monsters, specially uniques: Gorlim, Gabriel, Ibun, Khim, Mim, Mouth of Sauron, Omarax, Saruman, Tarrasque.. Might be more.
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Old July 22, 2012, 22:45   #4
Therem Harth
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You're mostly correct about no summons -> no danger, but there are exceptions. The most notable is probably the Tarrasque, which breaths frequently and for very high damage; it's been known to kill fairly powerful characters.
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Old July 23, 2012, 17:10   #5
quarague
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donalde View Post
Only problem are with disenchanting monsters, specially uniques: Gorlim, Gabriel, Ibun, Khim, Mim, Mouth of Sauron, Omarax, Saruman, Tarrasque.. Might be more.
not really if you have resistance to disenchantment.

I guess this thread didn't go in the direction I intended. Thanks for the tips, very helpful. I was more thinking along that it is rather sad that the game becomes monotonous in the later stages.
I felt in the early game, you have to be creative to survive, some monsters are best killed at range, others you should melee. If you find a random staff or wand, making good use of it makes your survival a lot more likely. Thus even if you play 10 half-troll paladins in a row, they will play out very differently until about level 20. After that they are pretty much all the same and you use more or less the same strategy against every single monster.
I wish there were still some high level monsters that kill a char in 3 or 4 turns in melee but are mostly harmless at range and others that are only dangerous if they can see you from a distance.
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Old July 26, 2012, 09:04   #6
donalde
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There are couple of heavy hitters, 1st comes to mind horned reaper, attacks 4 times with 11d11, that is significant amount of damage dealt. Other dangerous opponent is greater titan. On ranged attacks... canine packs are really dangerous. And already mentioned Tarrasque.
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Old July 26, 2012, 09:22   #7
Timo Pietilš
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donalde View Post
There are couple of heavy hitters, 1st comes to mind horned reaper, attacks 4 times with 11d11, that is significant amount of damage dealt. Other dangerous opponent is greater titan. On ranged attacks... canine packs are really dangerous. And already mentioned Tarrasque.
Drujs. Those are monsters dangerous at distance, but not close. Teleporting when there is graveyard into level is a bad bad idea, even if you have already killed everything that moves in it.
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Old July 26, 2012, 15:33   #8
fizzix
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When evaluating damage per turn (ignoring side effects), I'm pretty sure even the heaviest of breathers do less damage at range than they do at melee. This is because at range, some amount of monster turns will be spent moving towards the player. If adjacent to the player, those same turns will be spent attacking. Even if the ranged attacks do more damage, the average damage should be higher in melee.

That being said, late game gameplay in angband is probably the weakest part of the experience now, at least for veteran players. For new players, it can be tempered by the novelty of the experience of playing so deep. There are lots of ideas floating around to improve it, but most are radical. They almost all involve limiting the players ability to remove monsters at will (or the player itself at will) and the corresponding changes to make late game monsters manageable.
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Old July 26, 2012, 15:59   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fizzix View Post
When evaluating damage per turn (ignoring side effects), I'm pretty sure even the heaviest of breathers do less damage at range than they do at melee. This is because at range, some amount of monster turns will be spent moving towards the player. If adjacent to the player, those same turns will be spent attacking. Even if the ranged attacks do more damage, the average damage should be higher in melee.
The problem here is that average damage is rarely the value that players are concerned about. Average damage has a big impact on how long you can stay in a fight, sure, but what determines when you have to cut and run is peak damage. I don't want to stick around if there's a Dracolich in view and my HP are below 550, even though it only has a 1 in 24 chance of breathing nether on any given turn and its melee attacks are not especially threatening (peak damage 194, 96 of which is subject to AC damage reduction). Doing otherwise is basically playing Russian roulette, and if you do that enough you will lose.
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Old July 26, 2012, 16:33   #10
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Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
The problem here is that average damage is rarely the value that players are concerned about. Average damage has a big impact on how long you can stay in a fight, sure, but what determines when you have to cut and run is peak damage. I don't want to stick around if there's a Dracolich in view and my HP are below 550, even though it only has a 1 in 24 chance of breathing nether on any given turn and its melee attacks are not especially threatening (peak damage 194, 96 of which is subject to AC damage reduction). Doing otherwise is basically playing Russian roulette, and if you do that enough you will lose.
Certainly. However the point I was trying to make is that, I don't think the 1/24 chance changes whether you are next to the dracolich or far away. So then it's *slightly* better from a damage perspective to be far away from the dracolich than to be next to it. I could be wrong though, it's been a while since I pored over that section of the code.
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