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Old April 2, 2009, 19:30   #21
PowerDiver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Mack View Post
Cave Man nailed it: priest/paladin is about absorbing & delivering damage; mage-casters are about avoiding it in the first place. Haste Self doesn't belong in the realm of stand and deliver. If you need speed as a Priest, you have to get it the hard way, through equipment and devices.
I disagree. If a paladin wants to be able to cast healing *in battle*, he needs to be faster than his opponent. Speed is vital for the direct approach. If you want to emphasize a phase & heal approach [it would not bother me to remove phase from the game], then <insert invective> give them phase in a town book. Caveman suggested that phase shouldn't even be a healer's spell.

I'd rather see speed a healer-only spell. Let the mages practice elemental magic, and let the priests emphasize non-elemental buffing. Speed seems to me more to be the latter.
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Old April 3, 2009, 02:52   #22
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I disagree. If a paladin wants to be able to cast healing *in battle*, he needs to be faster than his opponent.
Paladins are formidable fighters with god on their side. They are known for their heavy amour, not their speed. They can always heal themselves after bludgeoning their opponent.
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Old April 3, 2009, 09:08   #23
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I'm not particularly concerned with the blink spell for any class, simply because the scrolls are always cheap and available in large quantities. All classes can carry them, and throw them away in the dungeon if they require the inventory slot. I tend to use them a lot in the early game, and again right at the end, with comparatively little use in between.

With regard to Haste, you can construct a cogent argument to give it to either mage or priestly magic realms. I would just prefer not to see the same spell in both realms, and “tradition” has deemed this to be a mage spell. If you think paladins are a bit short-changed by this (and I must admit I’m not a big fan of the paladin), then they could be given a +1 attack spell or some such. Priests could be given a prayer that halves the energy required to caste a healing spell. Certainly, there should be scope for more differentiation of speed-related effects for different classes.
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Old April 3, 2009, 11:05   #24
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On reflection, I think I like the idea of giving priests/paladins a blink prayer (which I agree must be in a town book to be useful - probably the second book), and changing the mage blink spell to a blink-range targetted teleport (still in book 1) with a Clvl/50 chance of success (and destination square is open), else blink as normal.
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Old April 3, 2009, 20:42   #25
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I tried a few games for the comp, and figured I should report what I can't stand.

The first problem is presumably my own fault. I kept anything I thought too controversial out of the 309e release, and I must have left ?curse_weapon alone. IMO it should curse but not blast. I lost a character [well, his only decent weapon] to testing scrolls. This can be avoided by the tedium of swapping in a useless weapon every time you test a scroll. I hate bad effects that serve only to promote tedium.

Drain experience is out of control. My second game, I found some weapon with an ego like "of randomness" which seemed pretty cool, but if I took a few steps I might lose 3% of my exp. The problem is that if you make drain exp nasty enough to matter, then it forces the player to swap it out except when fighting. Every damned time. Exceptionally tedious. I stuck with it for one game as an experiment, but in the future will toss anything with that style of drain_exp, even Ringil if you put it there. I think the only type of solution that avoid the tedium issues is to have it drain *only when fighting*. Maybe a 10% penalty? I would implement that as when you hit, you lose exp proportional to the hit. So a 5 point attack on a 22 hp monster worth 8 exp would cost you (5/22) * (8 * 10%) exp. Just an idea. You don't want to do it only at death, or else you reintroduce tedious aspects like fighting for 20 turns then swapping out the weapon just before the kill.

It seemed to me that the point of DaJ was the atmosphere. Unfortunately, that was shattered by the "stealthy = unseeable but not invisible" paradigm. In a lit room, if something larger than a beagle is moving, I can see it no matter how stealthy [unless invisible]. If a small monster like a garter snake is close enough to attack, in a lit area, I can see it too when it moves unless it is under flora. Also, IMO there should be no stealth for sleeping monsters. If you want to set up ambush scenarios where a stealthy awake non-moving monster next to a wall waits and only gets to attack if you [try to] move into his square, that would make sense. But the way it is now, no way. This would not be a big deal, and only be a gameplay issue, except that it is completely opposed to what I see as the point of DaJ, which is to make the game feel more grounded in the player's knowledge base. My gut kept screaming "no frigging way" as I was clawed to death by the unseeable while equipped with see invisible.
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Old April 4, 2009, 07:30   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerDiver View Post
The first problem is presumably my own fault. I kept anything I thought too controversial out of the 309e release, and I must have left ?curse_weapon alone. IMO it should curse but not blast. I lost a character [well, his only decent weapon] to testing scrolls. This can be avoided by the tedium of swapping in a useless weapon every time you test a scroll. I hate bad effects that serve only to promote tedium.
I think that's a good idea and will probably change it for the next version.

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Originally Posted by PowerDiver View Post
Drain experience is out of control. My second game, I found some weapon with an ego like "of randomness" which seemed pretty cool, but if I took a few steps I might lose 3% of my exp. The problem is that if you make drain exp nasty enough to matter, then it forces the player to swap it out except when fighting. Every damned time. Exceptionally tedious. I stuck with it for one game as an experiment, but in the future will toss anything with that style of drain_exp, even Ringil if you put it there. I think the only type of solution that avoid the tedium issues is to have it drain *only when fighting*. Maybe a 10% penalty? I would implement that as when you hit, you lose exp proportional to the hit. So a 5 point attack on a 22 hp monster worth 8 exp would cost you (5/22) * (8 * 10%) exp. Just an idea.
Another good idea. When the game finally gets tested by experienced players is when I get the good ideas like this. I wanted to make the drain exp drawback effective enough to be a noticable drawback, but I like the idea of having it only drain while fighting.
The 'of randomness' egos (there are about five of them with the same ego name) have a random assortment of good stuff and they each have at least one drawback. I'll probably make them more rare.

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Originally Posted by PowerDiver View Post
It seemed to me that the point of DaJ was the atmosphere. Unfortunately, that was shattered by the "stealthy = unseeable but not invisible" paradigm. In a lit room, if something larger than a beagle is moving, I can see it no matter how stealthy [unless invisible]. If a small monster like a garter snake is close enough to attack, in a lit area, I can see it too when it moves unless it is under flora. Also, IMO there should be no stealth for sleeping monsters. If you want to set up ambush scenarios where a stealthy awake non-moving monster next to a wall waits and only gets to attack if you [try to] move into his square, that would make sense. But the way it is now, no way. This would not be a big deal, and only be a gameplay issue, except that it is completely opposed to what I see as the point of DaJ, which is to make the game feel more grounded in the player's knowledge base. My gut kept screaming "no frigging way" as I was clawed to death by the unseeable while equipped with see invisible.
Monster stealth / alertness was not well tested. I probably shouldn't have had a DaJAngband competition until I had monster stealth worked out better (but I was eager to have my game played & tested by more people). In the next version, you will automatically notice a monster whenever you hit it or it hits you.
Besides that, you also have to imagine that these rooms are dimly lit and not completely empty. There's bound to be rocks, old adventerer's skeletons, and other junk that's there in the dungeon. You don't want to actually see it in game because it's just junk. (Although I'm considering letting you be able to see them and just not be able to pick them up, so players will remember that it's there). Small monsters can hide in the junk on the floor. Enemy rangers and thieves can hide in a shadowy alcove. You really shouldn't be able to see the whole room in the large room because the lighting is always dim in this kind of place, but I'm not sure I can figure out how to do that. ..Actually I just thought of something. When the player is in a lit room, instead of actally having the room lit, I can just increase the player's light radius while he's in that room. But then you'd be able to see too far into the dark halls. hmm.. I'll probably think of something.
Some monsters (like mushroom patches) have stealth simply because they're very small and someone who isn't very alert (like the typical half-troll paladin) isn't going to notice them a lot of the time.
I'll probably do something like have sleeping monsters get a significant penalty to stealth. Also, I don't like how all monsters who haven't noticed you yet are considered to be asleep. I'm thinking about changing that. I'll be thinking about this stuff. Ideas are welcome.
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Old April 4, 2009, 07:41   #27
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One more note, hardly even a quibble, is that I find the breakpoints on weapon weight for strength bonuses unsettling. How about maximum str bonus at most weapon weight in lbs [or some factor of that]? It's probably not important, but I remember some V warriors who got 3 swings with a 5 lb weapon, and it would be strange if your system was set up so that a 5 lb weapon is massively better than either a 4 lb weapon or a 6 lb weapon. OTOH, some people love breakpoints, and they'd be happier with what you have now.
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Old April 4, 2009, 07:49   #28
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I don't much like the breakpoints either and will probably end up doing something like that. I get the idea into the game first and then test and think about how it would be better.

PS I'm don't know exactly what you mean by "make the game feel more grounded in the player's knowledge base"
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Old April 4, 2009, 09:30   #29
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PS I'm don't know exactly what you mean by "make the game feel more grounded in the player's knowledge base"
That's about your tagline, something like "do you know what a yeek is?". Putting in apes instead of unknowable beasts etc. I thought that was how you got started. Things seem a bit more familiar, so when something is counterintuitive it seems twice as disturbing.
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Old April 6, 2009, 21:31   #30
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I've taken the liberty of updating the graf-dvg.prf for use with DaJAngband. This is, of course for use with the David Gervias tileset (32x32 graphics). It's far from complete. I just carried over the default monster associations from Vanilla, but it's a start. About 600 of the 900 monsters now have tiles and all monsters now at least have an entry (even if empty) in the prf file. I have not touched the items, terrain, or anything else, but everything looked good in the 2.5 minutes I spent testing it out. Enjoy!
Get it at www.mediafire.com/buzzkill in the DAJAngband folder.

You may also need the 32x32.bmp and mask32.bmp (because I don't think that they are included). You'll find them in the Z plus folder.
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