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View Poll Results: What is your opinion on no_selling?
I enjoy not having to think about money. 34 59.65%
I'm divided -- I play a little bit of both. 7 12.28%
I like to lug loot to town and sell it the way it has always been. 16 28.07%
Voters: 57. You may not vote on this poll

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Old November 4, 2020, 13:54   #1
fph
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A new opinion on no_selling

This has been mentioned in a recent thread as something the community is divided on. There is a past poll on this topic, but it is from 2011.
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Old November 4, 2020, 15:37   #2
Sphara
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Probably the most important thing to vote for in this particular day.
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Old November 4, 2020, 15:52   #3
fiery_mews
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TBH the main reason I like it is the more reliable early game money - it makes it easier to stock up on consumables, esp. including utility stuff like Magic Mapping and Detect Traps. There's kind of a whole snowballing effect from that which IMO makes the early game faster and less frustrating.
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Old November 4, 2020, 15:58   #4
Raerick
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Quote:
I enjoy not having to think about money.
The wording of this first option kinda highlights a problem I think exists that is mostly irrelevant to no sell vs sell. That problem being that aside from the Alchemist and Blackmarket there is nothing much worth buying past DL20. I don't think dungeon treasures should be marginalized by making too much good stuff available all the time, but when my max depth for a character is 50+ and the Armorer's best stuff is still single resist armor or x of free action there is no point in checking it. Similar for the Weapon shop unless I want to check for a stack of okayish ammo. I think those two shops (and the magic shop) should at least stop carrying so much worthless magical crap I most likely already have set to ignore and at least be carrying something that generates 20 -30 DL below my max depth.

I would also say that all shops should start carrying better stuff over time more than they do. Not to a degree that removes challenging dangerous scenarios to get loot or consumables in the dungeon, but at least better than it is. Pricing could always be adjusted to the more expensive side for those things as well as usually I end up with way more money than I would ever spend by end game.



Back on topic the romance of diving into a dungeon to bring back loot to sell is appealing to me, but it does indeed get tedious so I haven't had no selling off for most of my games.
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Old November 4, 2020, 15:59   #5
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I like no selling; but having it on by default is frequently very confusing to new players (and to returning old players used to having selling on).
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Old November 5, 2020, 13:04   #6
DavidMedley
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sideways View Post
I like no selling; but having it on by default is frequently very confusing to new players (and to returning old players used to having selling on).
I agree with this.
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Old January 1, 2021, 20:18   #7
FogSpear
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This is my new player opinion on the no-selling option in Angband Vanilla (4.2.1).

After reading the poll and the comments, I have the following:

- yes, new players naturally expect both buying and selling in a shop to be available (turned on) by default.
- from a UI perspective, having options that rely on double negatives (eg not having a no-selling option vs not having a selling option) is confusing to users. It’s a similar UI problem to when I present metrics at work - if a high number means good in one instance and bad in another, the cognitive load on the reader/user increases without value.
- As stated in my first post in this forum, and reflected in some of the comments in this thread, I also believe that charisma would be useful with the selling option turned on - particularly with the idea of haggling mentioned in the thread.
- I agree with the comments that a buying/selling sub-plot is interesting to new players but recognize that such can get old for seasoned players. The current option to turn it on/off seems to meet both use cases.
- BTW - determining the asking price before actually selling an item was not clear at first; so I ended up selling items without knowing what I would get for them until I figured it out.
- I see the conflict of managing a large inventory while returning to town to sell items for gold. That conflict seems like a legitimate gameplay decision IMHO. If it becomes a problem with your play style - turn selling off.
- I also like the idea of a museum (or the middle earth equivalent) that buys artefacts when you bring them back to town - relieve your inventory and have a place to see them/share them with the townspeople.
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Old January 2, 2021, 21:06   #8
whartung
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FogSpear View Post
- As stated in my first post in this forum, and reflected in some of the comments in this thread, I also believe that charisma would be useful with the selling option turned on - particularly with the idea of haggling mentioned in the thread.
Honestly, having a sell or no sell option (however communicated or defaulted) is the best option.

I think the "code load" necessary to maintain and manage a CHR statistic is too high for the minimal value it would provide.

Not only do you need the statistic, but you need items that affects, potions that buff, "ugly" potions, etc. All of which would honestly be of minimal use overall.

The reason "seasoned" players turn this stuff off is simply that the "shine" of things like haggling dim very quickly. It's neat. Once. But while the shops do have value, as currently implemented, their value rapidly diminishes as you dive outside of having a Home and essentials like food and all the WoR you can carry. You travel to the other stores, but their gear is so low in quality, and you have so much money, it's really kind of pointless.

As done currently, the money game simply isn't. There's always that rare chance, especially early on, of getting a powerful enough item that you can actually afford. But otherwise it's used for IDing things, recharging things, and basic essentials.

A lot of work for minimal "real" gameplay and decision making.
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Old January 2, 2021, 22:38   #9
FogSpear
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Originally Posted by whartung View Post
I think the "code load" necessary to maintain and manage a CHR statistic is too high for the minimal value it would provide.
...
A lot of work for minimal "real" gameplay and decision making.
I understand that may be.

As a noob to this community, is there somewhere to better understand:
a) the game design principles
b) the governance model for decisions
c) measurement techniques for in-game balance
d) whether instrumenting of features has been conducted for usage stats
e) how refactoring plays into modernization of the code base and feature requests

I am curious about how this code has continued to thrive over time and how the community has gathered around it.
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Old January 3, 2021, 09:47   #10
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thut id chime in here,

when first no selling was made default, i was at first upset and refused to play with it,

after some time i tried it and havnt looked back,

i think it just makes the game more convenient not having to sell,,

still yet to play new version ( havnt played since 4,1,3) but assuming these feelings would still apply !
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