Angband.oook.cz
Angband.oook.cz
AboutVariantsLadderForumCompetitionComicScreenshotsFunniesLinks

Go Back   Angband Forums > Angband > Vanilla

View Poll Results: Should there be deaths you can't avoid no matter how well you prepare?
Yes 18 62.07%
Not 11 37.93%
Voters: 29. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old May 8, 2010, 00:19   #1
Nemesis
Adept
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 137
Nemesis is on a distinguished road
Should totally innevitalbe deaths be in the game or not?

Well, as Angband is a very random game, it might be hard to predict if it will be possible to die regardless of precautions, but should the developers do their best to make every death avoidable by being careful and well-prepared, or is the game more fun if you can't escape every death no matter how prepared you are?
  • I'm not talking about the possibility of landing in a really bad spot after teleporting (if you don't want to take that risk you can always escape with Teleport Level or *Destruction* instead!)
  • Nor am I talking about out of death monsters that you can detect and just stay away from
  • Nor am I talking about potions of Detonations (no one's forcing you to drink unidentified potions)
  • Nor am I talking about traps early in the game (you can always search for traps, and besides you haven't really got anything to lose in the beginning)
  • Nor am I talking about Nexus stat-swap (sure, it might make you want to kill yourself, but if you found some really, really great artifact in that game, you will find a way to recover)
  • I am talking about things like OOD monsters that you can't do anything about, like fast monsters with pass_wall
  • Borderline cases are starting in dark rooms filled with monsters capable of killing you in one turn, when you've just recalled or is playing with disconnected stairs, but then again, disconnected stairs is a bit like Iron Man, it's there to challange the best)
  • Another borderline case is OOD monsters that can't pass/kill wall, but still are capable of one shotting players, appearing before the Rod of Detection

Personally, I think the developers should do their best to hinder the RNG from handing out death sentences to helpless players. As the occasional OOD monster makes the game exciting, I guess it's very hard to hinder the game from killing off low level-characters really early into the adventure, but the further you get in the game, the more I am against deaths that can't be avoided. After stat gain depth there should be no depths that aren't the players' fault, as you're likely to find your first really great artifacts there, as well as spending lots of time maxing your stats. But of course, I don't like inavoidable deaths anywhere in the game, it's just that I think they are even more unfair the farther your game progresses.

As I've said somewhere before, if there's going to be deaths that you can't do a thing to avoid, why roll for a slight chance of "rocks fall, everyone dies" each turn?

However, I've seen lots of other people writing that they actually like to be completely at RNG's mercy, constantly risking inescapable death. That's why I started this poll!
Nemesis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 8, 2010, 01:15   #2
miyazaki
Adept
 
miyazaki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: BC, Canada
Age: 42
Posts: 227
miyazaki is on a distinguished road
I haven't voted because I can't agree with the way you have set up the question. I will agree that all the things you have listed are extremely dangerous, but NONE of them are unavoidable.

There was only one unavoidable death situation: going down stairs and being insta-killed before getting a chance to move on the new level. I am thankful that the maintainers have removed this.

My vote is for unavoidable deaths to be removed from the game, but I believe that this has already been done. And that the game could be made more difficult, including increasing the chance of OOD monsters, while keeping the status quo.

(I'd like to see a death that a player considers unavoidable--a real example, with a character dump--so we could discuss that. Personally, I can't remember a single one in my own experience of several hundred deaths.)
miyazaki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 8, 2010, 01:29   #3
fizzix
Prophet
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Madison, Wisconsin, US
Posts: 3,001
fizzix is on a distinguished road
With enough precautions every death is avoidable (except in the *very* early game) Although it's not necessarily fun to have all the precautions. Assuming a character at dlevel 40 has the following in their kit:

Detection (at least Detect Evil + Detect Invisible staves)
Teleport level/Deep Descent/Destruction

Furthermore, a character at this level has the choice to also scum for:
Full detection (in rod form, if they can't get it through spells)
Telepathy

I'm hard pressed to come up with a situation where death is unavoidable. However there are plenty of bad beat deaths, many of which you mentioned. (Just had a character who teleported into a room full of gravity hounds to escape a nether wraith, oops. How many breaths does it take to kill a level 32 gnome rogue at full health?)

The worst beat death I can think of is the 'landing in a dark room'. (Most classes get create doors to deal with this)

The only monster that really can instakill that won't show up with the Detect Evil/Invis staves is the drolem. And yes, I think drolems should be moved to dlevel 60 or so. So you can add poison breath by a drolem on a priest/paladin/warrior to bad beat deaths. What else is there? What other monster fits your criteria that provides unavoidable deaths at dlevels 30-100 to a reasonably well prepared character?

(the answer is apparently, 6 breaths. I thought it was higher too)
fizzix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 8, 2010, 02:56   #4
Derakon
Prophet
 
Derakon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 8,550
Derakon is on a distinguished road
How far back do you push the "unavoidability"? You can say that an avoidable death would be using Teleport Level instead of Teleport Self when in a bad spot in a fight, but most of the time the correct way to avoid that death is to avoid the fight in the first place! My priest would still be alive if he'd fled the level as soon as he saw that Xaren, but he thought he could avoid it by teleporting, which landed him first next to Adunaphel and then a pack of Gravity hounds. Push it back further, and the death would have been avoidable if I'd waited a bit longer before going to that depth. Ultimately, you know how to avoid death? Don't be born.

The only game I've ever heard of that featured what I feel to be a completely unavoidable death was Omega (which isn't even related to Angband in the roguelike genealogy). As I heard it, there's a small chance when you're outside of being struck by a cosmic ray, which deals a small amount of damage. This can happen on your first turn, which occurs before you provide any input (the player is spawned right next to a town, where he'd be safe from cosmic rays). So you could roll up your character and watch him die right off the bat. That's a bug that deserves fixing. Everything else is arguing about how hard you want the game to be.
Derakon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 8, 2010, 03:20   #5
Pete Mack
Prophet
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 5,015
Donated: $40
Pete Mack is on a distinguished road
The only systematic "unavoidable" death is coming downstairs in a room-full of hounds outside of visibility, especially at speed +0. I've lost a handful of characters to this. I've had other unavoidable deaths, but they were really random, a result of a completely unpredictable set of circumstances on going down stairs.
It's not worth changing the game for.
Otherwise, detect often, use ESP/Infravision/Rods of Light to help see enemies from a distance, and get your stealth up.
Pete Mack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 8, 2010, 04:31   #6
Atarlost
Swordsman
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 441
Atarlost is on a distinguished road
There are two solutions. Either remove the possibility of monsters being generated awake, or change dungeon generation in such a way that you never (or very rarely) wind up in a dark room. Kludgiest way would be to apply a light room effect on dungeon entry, but placing stairs only in blind hallways (and making non-stair entry always happen at a location that passes the stairway tests) would work well too.
__________________
One Ring to rule them all. One Ring to bind them.
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness interrupt the movie.
Atarlost is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 8, 2010, 05:03   #7
Zikke
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,068
Zikke is on a distinguished road
I haven't figured out the pattern of when the room gets auto lit up when you come down the stairs and when it gives you a dark room. It even happens both ways at lower levels...
__________________
A(3.1.0b) CWS "Fyren_V" NEW L:50 DL:127 A++ R+++ Sp+ w:The Great Axe of Eonwe
A/FA W H- D c-- !f PV+++ s? d P++ M+
C- S+ I- !So B ac++ GHB? SQ? !RQ V F:
Zikke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 8, 2010, 07:52   #8
ewert
Knight
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 525
ewert is on a distinguished road
I voted no, because there should not be.

I also think that there are none at the moment ... Unavoidable deaths that is. Lots of avoidable ways to die of course. Mostly it's unpreparedness or player stupidity that kills (I almost died multiple times with my druid at 98 because boredom was hitting me, meleeing wyrms too fast so often I did a turn or two of melee at <400hp after a big breath before healing =P).
ewert is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 8, 2010, 08:01   #9
Zikke
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,068
Zikke is on a distinguished road
The only way I am aware of that is instant death was fortunately removed from Vanilla, which was not getting the first turn when taking the stairs. I'm glad that that got fixed.
__________________
A(3.1.0b) CWS "Fyren_V" NEW L:50 DL:127 A++ R+++ Sp+ w:The Great Axe of Eonwe
A/FA W H- D c-- !f PV+++ s? d P++ M+
C- S+ I- !So B ac++ GHB? SQ? !RQ V F:
Zikke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 8, 2010, 08:54   #10
Derakon
Prophet
 
Derakon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 8,550
Derakon is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zikke View Post
I haven't figured out the pattern of when the room gets auto lit up when you come down the stairs and when it gives you a dark room. It even happens both ways at lower levels...
Assuming this hasn't changed in the last decade or so, it's just a percentage chance for each room to be lit, that starts at 100% at 50' and drops to 0% by...it's either 500' or 1000', I forget which. Has nothing to do with when you enter the level; just what depth you're at.
Derakon is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
My best game every so far...over Wraitheist Vanilla 20 September 3, 2013 17:59
My best game so far... Wraitheist Vanilla 5 August 21, 2008 20:18
The Late Game Zero Vanilla 13 August 9, 2008 02:47
methods to prevent careless deaths? will_asher Vanilla 22 February 25, 2008 23:07
FAA - near-unavoidable deaths... Seany C Variants 3 February 8, 2008 14:54


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 17:57.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.