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Old October 6, 2008, 03:04   #11
Pete Mack
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Chod--
the issue is, if you enable AI in V, the game is essentially impossible because there's no way to kill Morgoth--he heals himself faster than you can do damage. (The same holds earlier in the game for other monsters with self-heal.) So if your game has even 3.5GAI, you need some way to rebalance. The usual result is monster mana, in which case it becomes nearly impossible to really hurt Morgoth until he runs out of mana. (Empirically, you need to be doing upward of ~600dam/turn just to keep up with his self-heal.)
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Old October 6, 2008, 05:16   #12
ChodTheWacko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Mack View Post
Chod--
the issue is, if you enable AI in V, the game is essentially impossible because there's no way to kill Morgoth--he heals himself faster than you can do damage. (The same holds earlier in the game for other monsters with self-heal.)
Yeah, can't argue with that, it would make healers almost impossible.

- Frank
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Old October 6, 2008, 11:42   #13
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And then there's group monsters with a shamen in the middle of them to think about!
Why is it taking me so long to kill this snaga?
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Old October 6, 2008, 15:59   #14
bpleshek
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Originally Posted by ChodTheWacko View Post
Meh. They can't quaff potions of restore mana, or zap wands or use items that you may use to conserve mana.

It's an interesting idea, but I don't think it necessarily makes the game more 'fair'.

- Frank
Actually, you can remedy this in one of two ways.

1. Just give a creature more mana. More dangerous creatures would have more mana.

2. Give them mana potions. It wouldn't actually HAVE to be mana potions per se, but a 0 mana cost Spell that restores mana. Then the creature could choose to use an action to restore health.

Brian
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Old October 6, 2008, 16:15   #15
awldune
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Mack View Post
Chod--
the issue is, if you enable AI in V, the game is essentially impossible because there's no way to kill Morgoth--he heals himself faster than you can do damage. (The same holds earlier in the game for other monsters with self-heal.) So if your game has even 3.5GAI, you need some way to rebalance. The usual result is monster mana, in which case it becomes nearly impossible to really hurt Morgoth until he runs out of mana. (Empirically, you need to be doing upward of ~600dam/turn just to keep up with his self-heal.)
NPP doesn't seem to have this problem, though. I haven't looked at the AI code, but it seems like monsters only have a certain percentage chance of doing the "smartest" thing.

In any case, when powerful monsters start healing themselves, it is usually a good thing. It's a turn and some mana that could have been used to call a mana storm, summon wyrms, etc.
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Old October 6, 2008, 17:14   #16
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Right. All self-healing stuff I've met in NPP so far wasn't really overhealthy.
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Old October 6, 2008, 17:49   #17
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I was talking about self-heal in games withoutonster mana, where self-heal
Just gives the monster more chances to summon or mana storm. NPP is one of the variants where the problem was solved by...adding monster mana.
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Old October 6, 2008, 23:09   #18
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I really don't see how leveling the playing field would make the game unfair or unbeatable. An enemy, be it monster, demon, or NPC, with some really good AI probably has an advantage over me in an exactly equal peer to peer fight.
If implementing changes such as these makes an enemy unbeatable, then that enemy is simply too powerful and needs to be toned down a little.
If the changes result in an enemy being nearly unbeatable... well, that just sounds like fun.

EDIT: and if I may continue.. games that let the computer controlled oppenents play by different rules in order to make up for crappy AI just piss me off. I'm not picking on Angband in particular here (though certainly guilty). Most games operate on this premise... but still....

Last edited by buzzkill; October 8, 2008 at 01:23.
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Old October 7, 2008, 01:03   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Mack View Post
I was talking about self-heal in games withoutonster mana, where self-heal
Just gives the monster more chances to summon or mana storm. NPP is one of the variants where the problem was solved by...adding monster mana.
But you mentioned that in monster mana variants, it is nearly impossible to kill Morgoth until he runs out of mana.

I haven't found this to be the case.
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Old October 7, 2008, 01:47   #20
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I said it's apmost impossible unless you can really dish out damage-possible for a ranger or warrior; not so easy for a priest. And I only really know about NPP in this regard. As a test, try turning on monster AI in V...
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