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Old April 21, 2011, 11:36   #41
TJS
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Originally Posted by Nick View Post
My apologies - it probably was a bit over the top. It was the second comment in a short space of time, and I didn't want it becoming a trend ... but I guess that's just my opinion.

I'm now really tempted to make my sig "Long time poster desperate to throw his weight around".
Heh good reply, fair play. My comment was probably OTT as well.

On topic, I don't think level feelings would be all that bad if they didn't put a big emphasis on boring things like jelly pits.

Talking of jelly pits, does anyone actually find them fun? I find all pits/nests a bit boring and a bit strange as well. Would a hundred odd dragons of exactly the same type all live in exactly the same place (and in a perfectly rectangular room as well)?

They also are quite dull from a gameplay perspective since you either can deal with them easily (eg. fire immunity and red dragon pit) or have to avoid them completely.

I'd prefer more irregular pits that are much smaller in scale (perhaps 8-10 monsters) dotted around the level. Would be good to have a nice amount of treasure in there as well.
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Old April 21, 2011, 13:00   #42
Timo Pietilš
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Originally Posted by TJS View Post
Heh good reply, fair play. My comment was probably OTT as well.

On topic, I don't think level feelings would be all that bad if they didn't put a big emphasis on boring things like jelly pits.

Talking of jelly pits, does anyone actually find them fun? I find all pits/nests a bit boring and a bit strange as well. Would a hundred odd dragons of exactly the same type all live in exactly the same place (and in a perfectly rectangular room as well)?

They also are quite dull from a gameplay perspective since you either can deal with them easily (eg. fire immunity and red dragon pit) or have to avoid them completely.

I'd prefer more irregular pits that are much smaller in scale (perhaps 8-10 monsters) dotted around the level. Would be good to have a nice amount of treasure in there as well.
I clear undead pits. Those are quite interesting. Demon pits are maybe least interesting because they either are too easy or too hard, but very rarely anything between (and if the demon pit has horned reapers all that is left after a while is them and greater balrogs and pit fiends).

Jelly pits, zoos and undead pits have now treasure in them. Sometimes they are well worth clearing up, sometimes not. What I hate in them are unmovable monsters with tele-to spells. Q:s in zoos, and drujs in graveyards.
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Old April 21, 2011, 15:19   #43
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Originally Posted by Timo Pietilš View Post
Jelly pits, zoos and undead pits have now treasure in them. Sometimes they are well worth clearing up, sometimes not. What I hate in them are unmovable monsters with tele-to spells. Q:s in zoos, and drujs in graveyards.
I've requested that Qs lose the ANIMAL flag. I still think this is a good idea, but many are opposed.

I dunno what to do about the drujs though. I think those are going to have to stay.
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Old April 21, 2011, 15:23   #44
Philip
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My personal opinion is that level feelings as they're currently implemented are useless. Most of the good artifacts I've found have been on levels with less than good feelings. I'd pretty much vote to abolish them in their present incarnations.

I don't have very good ideas for this, but I think I would prefer a gradual revealing of the level in advance. Perhaps this would occur when you are in proximity to a good item, or dangerous monster. Kind of like a vague form of ESP + detection. Of course you'd need time to get these feelings, so you'd have to be in proximity to this monster or item for some number of turns.

The logic would be, as you approach the lair of a dangerous monsters or group of monsters, you notice their presence based off of refuse on the floor and marks on the hallways, or the sounds of their snoring. Magical items create an aura around them, that pervades through everything. You could also increase the probability of getting this closeness feel if you have search on. Maybe that would make a use for this pretty much unused option for new players. You aren't just searching for hidden doors in adjacent squares, you are searching for clues as to what lay in the level ahead.

You could even make it class dependent, so rangers get a strong feel for animals and warm blooded monsters, rogues and warriors get strong feelings for weaponry, mages get strong feelings for jewelry and magic items. priests and paladins get strong feelings for evil creatures.
I found this on one of the other threads, fizzix's idea. And this seems like the same thing, from the Invisible Stalker:
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Originally Posted by the Invisible Stalker View Post
Perhaps it's just that I've watched too many Woody Allen movies, but lately I've been thinking that what Angband needs is a feeling of anxiety. Allow me to explain.

Level feelings are currently broken. I never liked them anyway, so I would prefer to see them replaced rather than repaired. And what I would like to replace them with is anxiety. Here is how I envisage it working.

There would be an indicator of your character's current level of anxiety. Perhaps the best one would be the color in which his name is displayed. Green for calm, red for extremely anxious, and various shades of yellow and orange in between.

Everything potentially bad would induce a certain amount of anxiety: out of depth monsters, traps, cursed items. The closer the danger, the greater the effect.

This would be pretty much useless in the middle and endgame, when you have detection, but it would be helpful for low level characters.

Anxiety would be a "special ability". Some races and classes would be more anxious than others. In general, the more fragile races and classes would be more anxious, understandably. This would have a mild balancing effect.

What would more anxious mean? Several things. Greater range. A greater range of anxiety levels. Better adapted to the character, e.g. checking for resistance holes and matching attacks. Faster response time.

Of course, level feelings depend on good things as well as bad, so maybe there should be a second attribute, excitement, which would respond to out of depth items, artifacts, etc.

I might try to code something like this during the summer vacation if people think it is a good idea. So what do you think? Do you want to feel anxiety?
the results were:
Bad idea 1 vote
Good idea 4 votes
Who cares 16 votes.
I think having a feeling about a whole level is wrong, and giving people a hint something weird is going on is also good.
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Old April 21, 2011, 15:40   #45
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Originally Posted by Timo Pietilš View Post
Demon pits are maybe least interesting because they either are too easy or too hard, but very rarely anything between (and if the demon pit has horned reapers all that is left after a while is them and greater balrogs and pit fiends).
TRAMPLING needs to be done away with. I don't see how TRAMPLING by any mob improves the game. Have you seen the nastiness a Blubbering Icky Thing can do? (my humble opinion) U-pits would be much better w/out the Trampling. I saw poor Grishnakh trampled once, fortunately, since he's a unique, he got to come back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Timo Pietilš View Post
Jelly pits, zoos and undead pits have now treasure in them. Sometimes they are well worth clearing up, sometimes not. What I hate in them are unmovable monsters with tele-to spells. Q:s in zoos, and drujs in graveyards.

The topic though, whether pits should add to level feelings or not: no they should not. They should add, if possible, to the sense of danger - i.e., I don't think you should see "this place seems peaceful" when an undead pit lurks elsewhere in the level. Items in a pit, however, do add to the level feelings, which is fair game.


My issue with level feelings is too much information is given away about the level in terms of what's lying on the floor. E.g., you know you won't find a artifact or other great weapon in a "good" or "very good" feeling. My request for more ambiguity is to make it so the surprise value is greater. A level with greater vault containing a huge amount of loot may wind up being a "good feeling" level. Experienced players know what to expect from "a little bit lucky" levels, "good" levels, "very good", "excellent", and so on. Once items on a level have been generated, the RNG would rate the level and then say chose a feeling from a range of positive or negative feelings.

I would love to see a message like, "you have a sense of jubilee and impending doom" - i.e., you might be on a level with greater vault containing both good loot and great danger. It might turn out, however, one was also on a level with a stack of potions of charisma and a giant pit or a couple of uniques.
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Old April 21, 2011, 16:19   #46
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TRAMPLING needs to be done away with. I don't see how TRAMPLING by any mob improves the game. Have you seen the nastiness a Blubbering Icky Thing can do? (my humble opinion) U-pits would be much better w/out the Trampling. I saw poor Grishnakh trampled once, fortunately, since he's a unique, he got to come back.
Uniques should be immune to trampling, so that's odd.

Personally I like trampling; it's a neat bit of flavor. I could support monsters in pits/vaults being immune to it though.

(I kinda also want items in vaults to be immune to being trampled by that gosh-darn air elemental, but I doubt people would go for that)
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Old April 21, 2011, 17:47   #47
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Uniques should be immune to trampling, so that's odd.
They are not. I have seen in many cases now Q unique getting trampled over by summoned giant unique (unique hunting using unique summoner as method).
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Old April 21, 2011, 17:54   #48
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Personally I like trampling; it's a neat bit of flavor. (I kinda also want items in vaults to be immune to being trampled by that gosh-darn air elemental, but I doubt people would go for that)
Well, I don't think unique items can be trampled...
But, trampling of mobs just needs to stop. I don't have any issue with mobs pushing past other mobs...

If it's just me, I know how to edit the files to make it a personalized option.
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Old April 21, 2011, 17:58   #49
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Artifacts are untramplable, yeah, but not stat potions, dungeon spellbooks, scrolls of Destruction, and the like...
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Old April 21, 2011, 19:29   #50
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Originally Posted by Spacebux View Post
Well, I don't think unique items can be trampled...
But, trampling of mobs just needs to stop. I don't have any issue with mobs pushing past other mobs...

If it's just me, I know how to edit the files to make it a personalized option.
The edit files are pretty easy to guess at. You just need to look and get a feel. The first monster that tramples that comes to mind is blubbering icky thing. Looking at the entry, the obvious word is KILL_BODY. Just be careful that when you remove a flag, you have to remove the or bar '|' as well or the entire line if it was the only flag on the line.

[edit]Clueless me, you probably don't want just to remove KILL_BODY, but rather replace it with MOVE_BODY.

Last edited by PowerDiver; April 21, 2011 at 19:48.
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