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Old December 16, 2009, 20:26   #1
PowerDiver
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multiple barehand blows?

Currently, many starting @s get multiple blows with light weapons. However, those same chars get a single blow when attacking without a weapon.

Should the @ get multiple barehand attacks when that would happen with a light weapon?

I have had early chars who did more damage with a whip (1d3) (+0,-3) than with punching. I really do not know whether I think that is good or bad. I waffle.

I would be a little surprised if anyone besides me ever chooses initial stats for multiple blows and then descends barehanded. I'm not sure any arguments are truly relevant.


The main reason for multiple barehand attacks is so that it would be natural to display the number of attacks with a light weapon during character creation when the char is barehanded.
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Old December 16, 2009, 21:23   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerDiver View Post
Currently, many starting @s get multiple blows with light weapons. However, those same chars get a single blow when attacking without a weapon.

Should the @ get multiple barehand attacks when that would happen with a light weapon?

I have had early chars who did more damage with a whip (1d3) (+0,-3) than with punching. I really do not know whether I think that is good or bad. I waffle.

I would be a little surprised if anyone besides me ever chooses initial stats for multiple blows and then descends barehanded. I'm not sure any arguments are truly relevant.


The main reason for multiple barehand attacks is so that it would be natural to display the number of attacks with a light weapon during character creation when the char is barehanded.
I think there is only any point worrying about this if we are going to have proper martial arts (like in S, or for druids in O). IMO it would be an alternative warrior build (possibly even a separate class), which got significant bonuses from wielding no weapon.
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Old December 16, 2009, 21:50   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnate View Post
I think there is only any point worrying about this if we are going to have proper martial arts (like in S, or for druids in O). IMO it would be an alternative warrior build (possibly even a separate class), which got significant bonuses from wielding no weapon.
No, no, it's not about the game effect. I had to mention that, but it's not the point.

The main point is so that as you adjust your stat points during birth you see when blows changes.
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Old December 16, 2009, 22:00   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerDiver View Post
No, no, it's not about the game effect. I had to mention that, but it's not the point.

The main point is so that as you adjust your stat points during birth you see when blows changes.
Oh! Right. Yes. We have a ticket for that. (http://trac.rephial.org/ticket/759#759)
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Old December 16, 2009, 22:02   #5
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I think it makes some sense to treat barehanded as having a weight-zero weapon (or a weight-.5 weapon, or whatever makes the coding easier). Displaying #blows when selecting stats is a bit iffy, though, given that the actual weapon the character ends up with may give a different result than the "weapon" being used at chargen. In other words, there's potential for confusion there.
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Old December 16, 2009, 22:13   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
I think it makes some sense to treat barehanded as having a weight-zero weapon (or a weight-.5 weapon, or whatever makes the coding easier). Displaying #blows when selecting stats is a bit iffy, though, given that the actual weapon the character ends up with may give a different result than the "weapon" being used at chargen. In other words, there's potential for confusion there.
Not really. Each class has a minimum weapon weight, below which no advantage is gained in terms of extra blows. So all we need to show on the char screen is the number of blows at that min weight (which is always between 3lb and 4lb). So setting unarmed as 0.1lb weapon would work fine.
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Old December 16, 2009, 22:34   #7
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Magnate: I'm mostly thinking of the player rolling up a warrior, say, and saying "Why don't I get three blows per round with my longsword?" This is the hypothetical player that doesn't know even at a high level how the blows system works.

I guess that's more the fault of the blows system being opaque than the chargen screen being misleading, though.
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Old December 16, 2009, 22:51   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
Magnate: I'm mostly thinking of the player rolling up a warrior, say, and saying "Why don't I get three blows per round with my longsword?" This is the hypothetical player that doesn't know even at a high level how the blows system works.

I guess that's more the fault of the blows system being opaque than the chargen screen being misleading, though.
Indeed. Takkaria has agreed to an overhaul of the blows system in a future release - moving to fractional blows. Still won't be instantly obvious to new players, but should be quite a bit easier to explain in the help.
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Old December 17, 2009, 00:20   #9
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This is getting a bit far-fetched, but I'm imagining an inline help system and I think it'd make the game much more accessible. So for example, while you're on the character screen, you could use the cursor keys (or the mouse) to highlight various entries, and get some explanatory text about what they are and what affects them (e.g. how your saving throw protects against curses and status ailment spells, and is improved by increasing your wisdom score). Or in the monster memory, you could highlight different spells and melee attacks to get more information on what they can do (e.g. the damage potential of a moderate curse spell, or the amount of experience drain caused by a Black Wraith's touch).

The current documentation is fairly complete but not very accessible. Making it inline (but not intrusive) would be a big help.
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Old December 17, 2009, 10:55   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
Magnate: I'm mostly thinking of the player rolling up a warrior, say, and saying "Why don't I get three blows per round with my longsword?" This is the hypothetical player that doesn't know even at a high level how the blows system works.
Well, I think the #1 question to ask here is: "why do warriors start with a longsword, when the first thing every expert player does is selling it to buy a dagger/main gauche/rapier, which does more damage and costs less?"

I'd go for one of the following:
-starting with a rapier or a dagger
-no starting weapon -- just buy what you prefer
-changing the starting weapon to the "best possible one" according to STR/DEX.
Of course adjust the starting money accordingly.
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