Angband.oook.cz
Angband.oook.cz
AboutVariantsLadderForumCompetitionComicScreenshotsFunniesLinks

Go Back   Angband Forums > Angband > Development

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old May 20, 2011, 09:49   #1
Timo Pietilä
Prophet
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Climbing up from hole I just dug.
Posts: 4,096
Timo Pietilä is on a distinguished road
Priest pointy penalty

I read from other thread in ...vanilla that priest pointy penalty is going away. How is it compensated? Mage gauntlet penalty is negligible compared to priest pointy penalty so that is not an answer. Without penalty priest is überpaladin.

Priest is already easiest (not fastest, easiest) class in entire angband, we really don't need to make it even easier.
Timo Pietilä is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 20, 2011, 09:59   #2
Nick
Vanilla maintainer
 
Nick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Canberra, Australia
Age: 56
Posts: 9,167
Donated: $60
Nick will become famous soon enoughNick will become famous soon enough
First thought - cut them back to 3 blows. Or make it harder for them to get to 4.

Another thing - what happens to blessed weapons now? Just removed?
__________________
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
Nick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 20, 2011, 10:47   #3
Magnate
Angband Devteam member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: London, UK
Posts: 5,060
Magnate is on a distinguished road
Send a message via MSN to Magnate Send a message via Yahoo to Magnate
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick View Post
First thought - cut them back to 3 blows. Or make it harder for them to get to 4.

Another thing - what happens to blessed weapons now? Just removed?
We are still musing upon what to do with Blessed weapons - one idea was to make paladins do more damage with them, but there's no real urgency to find a special use for them. They're still interesting weapons with a random power and a WIS bonus. I daresay someone will come up with something good sooner or later.

I have to say, I'm ambivalent about the pointy penalty. I wasn't agitating for its removal, even though I merged and committed the change. I think the thematic objections are sound, but I agree that it does leave things a bit blander and less well balanced. Personally I think it moves us very slightly towards a significant overhaul of the spell system (which has been brewing for some time in numerous threads), which is a good thing, but it's possibly premature for 3.3. We're looking to release 3.3 in the next few months, and I'm not sure if it makes much sense to release after removing the pointy penalty and before making any other related changes to casters. I could cope with all casters having CUMBER_GLOVE in the meantime, even though that's not as significant as the pointy penalty (which itself wasn't significant enough to make a real difference, IMO).

I could also cope with priests getting a real combat nerf, as suggested by Nick. That would make them quite challenging, as OOD does not compare with melee damage in the endgame.

Other people's mileage varies, of course.
Magnate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 20, 2011, 10:59   #4
Timo Pietilä
Prophet
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Climbing up from hole I just dug.
Posts: 4,096
Timo Pietilä is on a distinguished road
So there isn't real compensation, only bad suggestions? Why on earth did that change get thru then? Don't fix something that isn't broken.
Timo Pietilä is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 20, 2011, 14:39   #5
Antoine
Ironband/Quickband Maintainer
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,009
Antoine is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timo Pietilä View Post
So there isn't real compensation, only bad suggestions? Why on earth did that change get thru then? Don't fix something that isn't broken.
It does seem an odd change to make at this point.

A.
__________________
Ironband - http://angband.oook.cz/ironband/
Antoine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 20, 2011, 16:28   #6
jens
Swordsman
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Göteborg, Sweden
Posts: 348
jens is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antoine View Post
It does seem an odd change to make at this point.

A.
+1

Bah, stupid messaging system, I can just post '+1' need to add extra text...
jens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 20, 2011, 17:38   #7
Magnate
Angband Devteam member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: London, UK
Posts: 5,060
Magnate is on a distinguished road
Send a message via MSN to Magnate Send a message via Yahoo to Magnate
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timo Pietilä View Post
So there isn't real compensation, only bad suggestions? Why on earth did that change get thru then? Don't fix something that isn't broken.
I think it was considered broken by many. Eddie has always been vehemently opposed to it, and his influence is still significant. So have others, and takkaria - while not vehement - said they would be happy to see it removed.

As with so many changes, somebody put the effort into making it, so we made use of it. That doesn't mean it won't get reverted before 3.3 - this is the whole point of nightlies - we can test it and see how people feel about it when they actually play it, instead of exchanging lots of heated debate about what it might be like.
Magnate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 21, 2011, 12:32   #8
Timo Pietilä
Prophet
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Climbing up from hole I just dug.
Posts: 4,096
Timo Pietilä is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timo Pietilä View Post
I read from other thread in ...vanilla that priest pointy penalty is going away. How is it compensated? Mage gauntlet penalty is negligible compared to priest pointy penalty so that is not an answer. Without penalty priest is überpaladin.

Priest is already easiest (not fastest, easiest) class in entire angband, we really don't need to make it even easier.
OK, so we all agree that priest pointy penalty doesn't make any sense (thematically), but also that it is important factor to game balance and fun.

So what we need is suggestions to replacement penalty. Preferably something to do with weapons because hindering melee-ability of priests unless they use weapons specifically made for them does make sense.

Weapons are better in this than mage gauntlet penalty, because gauntlet AC is pretty meaningless, and those egos/artifacts that gauntlets have make that penalty even more meaningless (you wear them regardless of penalty, or they do not have penalty). There is only one weapon slot, but many armor slots.

My suggestion: any weapon that originates from temple or has blessed-flag is an allowed one, and temple offers wider variety of weapons. Maybe introduce some rare base object type that has blessed-flag.

Other suggestion would be restrict priests from using heavy bodyarmors unless armor has blessed-flag (there is no reason to restrict that to weapons, right?). This would make armor selection a bit trickier. Best soft armor is Thalkettoth and only Caspanion gives WIS-bonus (it should have Blessed-flag IMO). We could add blessed-flag to some other armors too, like elvenkind armors and elvenkind-like artifact Belegennon.
Timo Pietilä is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 21, 2011, 12:36   #9
Antoine
Ironband/Quickband Maintainer
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,009
Antoine is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timo Pietilä View Post
OK, so we all agree that priest pointy penalty doesn't make any sense (thematically)
I don't agree... it may not be historical or Tolkien-based, but it is consistent with D&D which is a major source for Angband.

A.
__________________
Ironband - http://angband.oook.cz/ironband/
Antoine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 21, 2011, 12:57   #10
Magnate
Angband Devteam member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: London, UK
Posts: 5,060
Magnate is on a distinguished road
Send a message via MSN to Magnate Send a message via Yahoo to Magnate
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timo Pietilä View Post
Other suggestion would be restrict priests from using heavy bodyarmors unless armor has blessed-flag (there is no reason to restrict that to weapons, right?). This would make armor selection a bit trickier. Best soft armor is Thalkettoth and only Caspanion gives WIS-bonus (it should have Blessed-flag IMO). We could add blessed-flag to some other armors too, like elvenkind armors and elvenkind-like artifact Belegennon.
Ooh, now this is a really interesting idea. It would be easy to implement too, since OF_BLESSED can be put on anything. Definitely worth some more thought.
Magnate is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Priest question ZenDragon Vanilla 18 May 22, 2011 18:28
What's the penalty for trying to cast spells without mana? Nemesis Vanilla 5 April 19, 2010 18:59
Suggestion : Make exp penalty hurt (but not too much ;-) PaulBlay Vanilla 14 April 7, 2009 04:24
priest strategies? d_m Vanilla 6 March 3, 2009 23:58
question about armor imposed mana points penalty tg122 Vanilla 4 December 17, 2007 18:17


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 06:58.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.