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Old October 30, 2013, 10:17   #11
Zireael
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Originally Posted by debo View Post
Here's my cheat sheet:

- get 7 points of perception
- buy lore-keeper and lore-master
That's my preferred route, too.
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Old October 30, 2013, 16:30   #12
Infinitum
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Loremaster is where it's at. I'm just not committed enough to keep track of what different consumables remain at large and construct the elaborate setups required to minimize the risk that I fail to identify one.

When looking at other games, Brogue handles the ID game better than any other roguelike I've encountered (with the possible exception of ToME 4, which just omits it altogether) - basically all consumables are automatically ID'd when used in an appropriate fashion (quaffing potions, aiming staves and wands at monsters etc). The only exception that comes to mind is Staff of Digging aimed at a monster, and those recharge charges anyway. There is even a super-handy cheat-sheet available from the menu which tells you which potions you have identified in any given game, and exactly what types remains to be identified.

Bottom line is that ID games in my experience tend to rapidly devolve into metgaming bs unless kept on a tight leash (admittedly so does roguelike combat systems, but tactical combat is so much more, well, fun in comparison). My preference would be, assuming simplifying the id game as above, to have Loremaster available without the prerequisite - basically it would over the course of a game save you one extra potion and/or charge of each type you encountered at the cost of a feat as well as always be wearing the most optimal equipment available to you, which seems about fair

Oh, and for actual tips and tricks inscribing items is your friend ({ button by default), as is keeping lists irl with what items are present ingame. For as long as you can be bothered, anyhow.

Last edited by Infinitum; October 30, 2013 at 22:15.
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Old October 30, 2013, 20:51   #13
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Originally Posted by Infinitum View Post
My preference would be to have Loremaster available without the prerequisite - basically it would over the course of a game save you one extra potion and/or charge of each type you encountered at the cost of a feat as well as always be wearing the most optimal equipment available to you, which seems about fair.
There is another advantage to Loremaster: it gets you back lots of XP. If you don't have Loremaster, you'll get the same XP many turns or levels later, and there are always a few items that you see but fail to pick up or identify (for several reasons: monsters are around and you can't stop, inventory constraints, some flavors are hard to ID-by-use). It almost pays for its cost in XP at the end of the game.
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Old October 30, 2013, 22:14   #14
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Oh, assuming that Potions/Items are easier to use-identify as I aforementioned. Maybe I should've made that clearer. Xp gain might indeed be a concern here, one possible solution would maybe be to have xp for novel items decay much in the same way as monster Xp (albeit slower). This would still act as an incentive for players to Xp as many items as possible whilst lowering the reward side of risk/reward behaviours such as trying to use-id every weapon one finds etc. This might be too harsh on pacifists however.

Last edited by Infinitum; October 30, 2013 at 22:34.
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Old October 31, 2013, 08:56   #15
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And, I forgot to add: Loremaster also makes you take less risks.

Suppose you see an unID'ed ring in a red dragon lair. Your first instinct is to take a risk and go get it. If you knew from the start that it's a RoCON-1, you wouldn't bother.

("Legolas, what do your Elven eyes see?" "Hmm, that dragon 100 metres away is wearing a RoCON-1 ring.")
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Old October 31, 2013, 09:37   #16
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It almost pays for its cost in XP at the end of the game.
''at the end of the game"!

While lore-master probably does not decrease or may even increase peak strength for suitable builds, you usually lose the experience between 500-600ft (or even earlier) and at that point the investment into lore-master is quite large or even crippling for perception heavy builds (if you have e.g. focus / concentration / keen senses / listen) - you can't wait much longer otherwise you would need to use-identify consumables anyway,.
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Old October 31, 2013, 14:06   #17
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When looking at other games, Brogue handles the ID game better than any other roguelike I've encountered (with the possible exception of ToME 4, which just omits it altogether) - basically all consumables are automatically ID'd when used in an appropriate fashion (quaffing potions, aiming staves and wands at monsters etc).
You state this as if it were a fact, but obviously this is just one opinion and an opinion that we don't share. It would be very easy to move to the Brogue or TOME 4 style, and would have required less effort in the past, but I think that would make the game worse. I think Sil has done well to cater to both opinion -- certainly better than Brogue or TOME 4, which only cater to your preferred approach (less ID). As others have pointed out, you need the cost of two abilities to prevent Loremaster being extremely profitable. It is roughly even as is, unless you want a lot of other perception abilities.

Regarding metagaming, I think Sil combat and ID are actually pretty realistic in the tradeoffs they encourage. We put in a lot of effort on this.
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Old October 31, 2013, 16:50   #18
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Optimal ID game by its nature is rather opaque is all I'm saying. Example given, "only" quaffing unknown potions in safe environs when slightly wounded (healing), being afflicted by a status effect (Slow Poison, Clarity) and preferrably only once inventory constraints forces you to to improve chances of having access to stat restoration isn't something that's readily apparent only from playing the game. And potions are comparatively simple to use-id compared to the more ambigous staffs and potentially lethal equipment (most notably cursed stat jewelry and vampiric weapons).

By the by, another (small) issue is unspoiled players not noticing that the appearance of Orcish Liqour and Mirurvor aren't randomized and potentially wasting valuable healing resources. Auto-ID on pickup (maybe with a smell-related flavourtext) would solve this.

Last edited by Infinitum; October 31, 2013 at 16:55.
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Old October 31, 2013, 18:54   #19
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Optimal ID game by its nature is rather opaque is all I'm saying. Example given, "only" quaffing unknown potions in safe environs when slightly wounded (healing), being afflicted by a status effect (Slow Poison, Clarity) and preferrably only once inventory constraints forces you to to improve chances of having access to stat restoration isn't something that's readily apparent only from playing the game. And potions are comparatively simple to use-id compared to the more ambigous staffs and potentially lethal equipment (most notably cursed stat jewelry and vampiric weapons).

By the by, another (small) issue is unspoiled players not noticing that the appearance of Orcish Liqour and Mirurvor aren't randomized and potentially wasting valuable healing resources. Auto-ID on pickup (maybe with a smell-related flavourtext) would solve this.
I think these are examples of where it is enjoyable for beginning players to gain knowledge and skill. Learning that Orcish Liquor has the same appearance each game is one of the first things on the learning curve. You notice that, which makes you a slightly better player. It is part of my approach to game design to have ways to improve your play which are spread across the spectrum: some things you can get quickly, some you learn on your 100th game, and most of which reward intelligence, creativity, systematic attempts to improve etc. Working out that you can be more efficient with IDing is a case of this, and you get a little minigame that interacts with the larger game (research optimally or minimise current risk?) and also teaches the scientific method (create a hypothesis for what this staff does, design a critical experiment, test).

As a broader note, I think quite a few games are balanced so that easy quick wins are removed, or are spoiled to the players in the manual. But this actually takes away from some of the enjoyable learning that can otherwise happen in the first few levels or first few games.
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Old October 31, 2013, 19:42   #20
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And, I forgot to add: Loremaster also makes you take less risks.

Suppose you see an unID'ed ring in a red dragon lair. Your first instinct is to take a risk and go get it. If you knew from the start that it's a RoCON-1, you wouldn't bother.

("Legolas, what do your Elven eyes see?" "Hmm, that dragon 100 metres away is wearing a RoCON-1 ring.")

You also get XP for items and artifacts that you can identify by sight, but are in too dangerous of a situation for you to actually get your greedy little handses on them.
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