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Old June 25, 2010, 01:11   #1
PowerDiver
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rings of escaping

I'd like to see some changes made to rings of escaping. I only use them as intended, to run fast when I need to escape. I use them a bit. They aren't particularly broken, but talking about energy and scoring for the comp made me think of them again.

First off, I've never liked the "you can shoot but you cannot melee" effects anywhere, and these rings are no exception. I also think a normal speed char ought to be able to use them to run from a fast critter. I don't think they should be usable as cheap speed rings. So here are my suggested changes

(1) change fear flag on escaping rings. No more -20 to hit or spell failure or inability to melee. Instead, 50% chance to fail at *anything* except movement, including using consumables, before checking for failure rates. "You fumble with your ...".

(2) increase the pval at least to +6, maybe to +10, so that with 2 rings you can get away from someone fast If +10, definitely need 2 rings to cause 2 50% fumble checks above.

(3) give them impair_hp and impair_mana so that if healing is changed to depend upon energy, you don't heal faster by putting one on. Even if healing is not changed, I think this makes sense.
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Old June 25, 2010, 02:40   #2
Derakon
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Sounds good to me, though I've never used them in the first place. I've generally been operating under the assumption that it's more or less impossible to make an early speed item that has penalties that make it balanced, so I just sell 'em all.
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Old June 25, 2010, 02:47   #3
ChodTheWacko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerDiver View Post
(1) change fear flag on escaping rings. No more -20 to hit or spell failure or inability to melee. Instead, 50% chance to fail at *anything* except movement, including using consumables, before checking for failure rates. "You fumble with your ...".
I'd think this should apply to fear in general - always seemed a bit silly you can't melee a monster but still shoot arrows at them. You shouldn't be allowed to do anything offensive, although I'd think movement consumables should be okay. (scrolls of teleport level/staff of teleport)

- Frank
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Old June 25, 2010, 03:11   #4
PowerDiver
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Originally Posted by ChodTheWacko View Post
I'd think this should apply to fear in general - always seemed a bit silly you can't melee a monster but still shoot arrows at them. You shouldn't be allowed to do anything offensive, although I'd think movement consumables should be okay. (scrolls of teleport level/staff of teleport)
As to other fear, that's old and I don't care to argue about it at this moment. Escaping fear is a new kind of fear, separately coded.

The classic example in the movies is people dropping car keys, i.e. fumbling with an activation that would allow them to escape. I think the fumbling is thematic, and avoids the whole intent issue. Is teleport other an escape? I'd rather simply make those arguments moot.
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Old June 25, 2010, 03:45   #5
Antoine
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Originally Posted by PowerDiver View Post
I'd like to see some changes made to rings of escaping. I only use them as intended, to run fast when I need to escape. I use them a bit. They aren't particularly broken, but talking about energy and scoring for the comp made me think of them again.

First off, I've never liked the "you can shoot but you cannot melee" effects anywhere, and these rings are no exception. I also think a normal speed char ought to be able to use them to run from a fast critter. I don't think they should be usable as cheap speed rings. So here are my suggested changes

(1) change fear flag on escaping rings. No more -20 to hit or spell failure or inability to melee. Instead, 50% chance to fail at *anything* except movement, including using consumables, before checking for failure rates. "You fumble with your ...".

(2) increase the pval at least to +6, maybe to +10, so that with 2 rings you can get away from someone fast If +10, definitely need 2 rings to cause 2 50% fumble checks above.

(3) give them impair_hp and impair_mana so that if healing is changed to depend upon energy, you don't heal faster by putting one on. Even if healing is not changed, I think this makes sense.
So then, the sequence would be: ?Phase, put on =Escaping, run for it?

Do you think they'd actually get used (in preference to ?Phase and teleport?)

A.
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Old June 25, 2010, 04:21   #6
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So then, the sequence would be: ?Phase, put on =Escaping, run for it?

Do you think they'd actually get used (in preference to ?Phase and teleport?)
I occasionally use them as is, on the trip I find them. The phase isn't so important. I might want to get to some stairs, and have to run through a room with a pack of orcs in it. You might think it strange that to escape the level I have to run toward my enemies, but that's fairly common. I'll expect to take damage, both melee and ranged, on the way. This isn't the only way to use them, of course. What you probably think of as standard escapes happen too.

If you are moving at double speed with 50% fumble, on average you would perform the same number of actions. But the variance would be frightening.

I've tried holding onto escape rings for later trips, but it was never worth a slot. The +4 boost just isn't enough.
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Old June 25, 2010, 06:01   #7
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I'm currently playing a mage with no-melee/no-archery, and I've used an escaping ring since I started. I originally planned to use 2 for most of the beginning levels, but I found early BoS, and that allowed me to just use 1. I don't agree with PDs ideas that consumables should have a fail, but I would definitely agree with considerably higher fail rates on spells and activations, and very severe penalties on to-hit archery. For archery, you should hit 1/3 of the time you would normally without the speed ring, and it should stack with 2 rings. Lastly the pval should be increased to 6 as suggested, so that you can flee from +10 speed monsters with 2 of them.
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Old June 25, 2010, 06:45   #8
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+1

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Originally Posted by PowerDiver View Post
50% chance to fail at *anything* except movement, including using consumables, before checking for failure rates.
Even taking the ring off? Heh.

IMO this should be the exception. Using thematic line of thinking, willingness to stop escaping and remove ring means you have regained your composure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Antoine View Post
So then, the sequence would be: ?Phase, put on =Escaping, run for it?

Do you think they'd actually get used (in preference to ?Phase and teleport?)
I can imagine using one in a situation like that. I have carried and used current ring "as intended." Sometimes I've been in a big early fight with one in the pack, use it to put some space between me and my foe so I can quaff some healing, remove it, and resume shooting. Great in those situations. Not escaping per say but needing a temporary speed boost. Proposed change to pval makes it better for that.

The other thing they are good for now is cash money. Light, stackable, expensive, and situationally useful to boot. I don't know what the proposed change does to its value one way or the other, or if it is even relevant.

Definitely abusable right now. My last decent mage wore 2 for a few levels without a noticeable loss in casting ability, 19-23 according to my notes at which point I switched to =freeAction and =STR since I was on the verge of *haste. Some high-ends spells were reduced but they were already too expensive to cast (3.1.1, before halving of damage spell mana) but my bread-and-butter were still 0%.

I don't mean to bust a guy but I noticed a ladder post of a dl90 warrior with 2 =escaping on and a +3 shots bow. Of course he is just using what RNG gives him and would prefer =speed, but something about that combination being usable doesn't seem right.
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Old June 25, 2010, 07:23   #9
PowerDiver
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Even taking the ring off? Heh.

IMO this should be the exception. Using thematic line of thinking, willingness to stop escaping and remove ring means you have regained your composure.
Heh indeed. I hadn't thought of that.

I don't have an opinion either way.

I'm wondering about level teleporters. The things everyone else calls stairs. I think it is best that you can use them without a fumble roll, but I might change my mind.
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Old June 25, 2010, 07:37   #10
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I support making the rings of escaping be a flat 50% fail on everything, on top of whatever fail they had before putting it on. And it should stack if there are 2 rings. People shouldn't be using them just for speed and dealing with the minuses to fighting.
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