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Old November 18, 2011, 16:17   #41
kaypy
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If the spellbooks drop in no-art games and are preserved if not collected, that would seem to solve all the issues (except maybe rarity, but that's "just" a question of balancing)

How would easy-know interact with preserve though?

I see two not terribly wonderful alternatives:

1) Spellbooks are unpreserved on detection or generation. If you have to leave the level, you may as well quit on the spot.

2) Spellbooks are unpreserved on pickup only. If you don't know to pick up the spellbooks you *aren't* interested in, they will keep being spawned, which defeats the purpose of this whole exercise.

On the randart spellbook front, would it just be a matter of giving each spellbook half a dozen pvals each interpreted as a spell index? I suppose you might want to allow additional variant spells for level/cost/difficulty, but that would open some serious cans of worm...
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Old November 18, 2011, 16:36   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaypy View Post
If the spellbooks drop in no-art games and are preserved if not collected, that would seem to solve all the issues (except maybe rarity, but that's "just" a question of balancing)

How would easy-know interact with preserve though?

I see two not terribly wonderful alternatives:

1) Spellbooks are unpreserved on detection or generation. If you have to leave the level, you may as well quit on the spot.

2) Spellbooks are unpreserved on pickup only. If you don't know to pick up the spellbooks you *aren't* interested in, they will keep being spawned, which defeats the purpose of this whole exercise.
easy_know applies to base objects, not artifacts. The artifact books are preserved until pickup, same as any other artifacts in preserve mode. We assume that people playing no_artifacts games will have preserve on - so if the spellbook is created on a level and you miss it completely, you can still get it later. If you play with preserve off, then you'd better pay attention to those special feelings in order to avoid missing a crucial spellbook. Seems ok to me (almost nobody plays with preserve off anyway).
Quote:
On the randart spellbook front, would it just be a matter of giving each spellbook half a dozen pvals each interpreted as a spell index? I suppose you might want to allow additional variant spells for level/cost/difficulty, but that would open some serious cans of worm...
At the moment the spells in a book are a property of the base item - this is why there's an insta_art base item for each artifact spellbook. Once we rewrite the spell system to be more flexible, we can have a generic object "spellbook", which will get a random list of spells. This will replicate the current play by choosing randomly from the existing spell lists (with the selection filtered differently for artifact books and non-artifact books) - but can then be extended to offer different and/or random spell lists.
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Old November 18, 2011, 22:55   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnate View Post
To do that, we'd need to split artifacts into two types - those which can drop in no_art games and those which can't.
Wouldn't it be easier to add a new item flag for artifacts that are still generated in a no-artifact game?
Instead of having the game skip loading the artifacts, it would go through the process of loading the artifacts, but skip or drop any that don't have this flag.
So, one function would need to be edited, a new item flag would need to be defined in a couple files, and then be added to the artifact spellbooks.
I can try to make those changes when I get home, but then I'll have to figure out how to get them to you - I know nothing about github.
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Old November 19, 2011, 08:44   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rydel View Post
Wouldn't it be easier to add a new item flag for artifacts that are still generated in a no-artifact game?
Instead of having the game skip loading the artifacts, it would go through the process of loading the artifacts, but skip or drop any that don't have this flag.
So, one function would need to be edited, a new item flag would need to be defined in a couple files, and then be added to the artifact spellbooks.
I can try to make those changes when I get home, but then I'll have to figure out how to get them to you - I know nothing about github.
Have a look at this thread, but use http://github.com/yourname/v4.git as the repo to clone locally. If you have probs, best thing to do is drop by #angband-dev on irc.freenode.net to get help (if you don't have an IRC client, you can use http://webchat.freenode.net/).

Yes, what I meant by "divide artifacts into two types" was simple add a bool struct element called a_ptr->no_art, which indicates that this artifact can be generated in a no_arts game. No changes need to be made to loading artifacts, we just need to add a check for if (!a_ptr->no_art) to the lines which check for OPT(birth_no_artifacts).
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Old February 2, 2012, 07:45   #45
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book artifacts

Just wanted to to say in reference to people saying the special books are not destructible.... I could swear i destroyed a special book in vanilla using a mana storm or whatever the spell is called. I am almost positive. Either that or it disappeared in error. i think the books are only impervious to the normal elements when on the ground, and impervious to anything if in your inventory. Maybe I'm wrong but yeah, if i'm right then maybe the coding needs to be changed to protect them from any harm on the ground too (as they are artifacts now)... but... if i'm wrong.... woops (i'm sure it happened though)
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Old February 2, 2012, 07:50   #46
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Vanilla, or v4? They aren't the same game. In Vanilla, dungeon books are not artifacts, so you can find more than one copy of each one, and while they're immune to the basic four elements, things like chaos or mana storms can still destroy them. In v4, they're artifacts and are thus completely indestructible, but you can only ever find a given book once.
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Old February 2, 2012, 12:01   #47
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In the latest V4 version I managed to get 2 of the same book dropped.

I think the sequence was - got one as a random drop, but didn't have a chance to pick up or identify. Killed Kavlax a few turns later after and got another (I guess as a special drop). On identification they turned out to be the same.

Regards,
Jonathan
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Old February 3, 2012, 05:10   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
Vanilla, or v4? They aren't the same game. In Vanilla, dungeon books are not artifacts, so you can find more than one copy of each one, and while they're immune to the basic four elements, things like chaos or mana storms can still destroy them. In v4, they're artifacts and are thus completely indestructible, but you can only ever find a given book once.
I've never played V4 Derakon... i was reading the top of this thread and someone mentioned burning books... they didn't really mention after (that i read) anything about what you just told me... so yeah... i wrote this thinking maybe artifact books might be able to be mana balled etc as vanilla books could be (if the code wasn't changed)... sorry (bye)
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Old February 4, 2012, 11:29   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jevansau View Post
In the latest V4 version I managed to get 2 of the same book dropped.

I think the sequence was - got one as a random drop, but didn't have a chance to pick up or identify. Killed Kavlax a few turns later after and got another (I guess as a special drop). On identification they turned out to be the same.

Regards,
Jonathan
Yes, this is a deliberate error. The alternative is a small but unacceptable chance of a book being generated, not found, and then not dropped by its designated holder.
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Old February 17, 2012, 02:22   #50
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Apparently the idea of making the dungeon books artifacts is fairly settled, but I have a few thoughts having just won with a mage in 3.3.2...

I still play with selling, so it's nice to have extra dungeon books -- they're high-value items that don't use an extra inventory slot.

There may be considerations of which I'm not aware, but making the books artifacts seems to be a bit of a square peg in a round hole, particularly given they'll still show up in no-artifacts mode and it's desirable that every reasonably-paced game will encounter them.

If what's wanted is an item that:
1. only 1 exists at a time
2. can't be stolen
3. can't be destroyed

I'd suggest new object flags as a better way to accomplish this (UNIQUE, NO_STEAL, etc). That would lay the groundwork for possible future functionality rather than creating a very odd special case.
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