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Old May 28, 2013, 19:25   #111
Magnate
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
Correct, every modifier on every Item (and almost every modifier on every Creature*) is just an entry in the Stats entity for that object. I do think there's some value in giving prominence to the "most important" stats for an object (thus dice, fin, and prow for weapons, and absorption/evasion for armor), but that's just for purposes of easy legibility.
I don't disagree with that, but you have talked elsewhere about the importance of intuitiveness / noob-friendliness. I don't know whether you think about those things specifically through the lens of V or just roguelikes/gaming in general - but I think a lot of people will think "oh, those are plusses to hitting and damage" because that's a common RPG convention. If you go with the prominence, I think it would help to make it a very early piece of tutorial help that +fin has no effect on accuracy and +prow has only an indirect effect on damage.
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* curHitpoints, nativeDepth, and experienceValue are not stored in the Stats entity for whatever reason, but we could easily move at least the latter two into it. I think curHitpoints should probably stay as a separately-tracked value since the game does want to know when things die.
Yes, that makes sense. Good idea to move the other two in.
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Old May 28, 2013, 19:40   #112
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Originally Posted by Magnate View Post
I don't disagree with that, but you have talked elsewhere about the importance of intuitiveness / noob-friendliness. I don't know whether you think about those things specifically through the lens of V or just roguelikes/gaming in general - but I think a lot of people will think "oh, those are plusses to hitting and damage" because that's a common RPG convention. If you go with the prominence, I think it would help to make it a very early piece of tutorial help that +fin has no effect on accuracy and +prow has only an indirect effect on damage.
Hm, that is a good point. Unfortunately, I think we're kind of stuck here -- we can either hide that information (e.g. by mixing it in with all the other "pvals") and piss off everyone, or show it prominently and confuse newbies. Unless you have a brilliant idea?

I think honestly the way to go here is to have a tutorial that explains things. We'll need one anyway.
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Old June 1, 2013, 18:14   #113
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I think a good middle ground to take is to display the Balance / Heft numbers and move +Pro and +Fin to the pvals.
Simlarly, I'd like to see the base level affixes to modify balance and heft rather than prowess and finesse... a "sharp" dagger does nothing for my kobald's ability to hit hard, but does affect how much of his meager arm strength the dagger can convert to damage. So as a sample, something like:
Sharp Dagger of Finesse (1d4, 90/15) <+48 fin>

That still leaves it where an explanation is going to be required for the newbies at one point or another, but it puts the most important weapon characteristics under this system immediately visible.
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Old June 1, 2013, 18:41   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilumanjaro View Post
I think a good middle ground to take is to display the Balance / Heft numbers and move +Pro and +Fin to the pvals.
Simlarly, I'd like to see the base level affixes to modify balance and heft rather than prowess and finesse... a "sharp" dagger does nothing for my kobald's ability to hit hard, but does affect how much of his meager arm strength the dagger can convert to damage. So as a sample, something like:
Sharp Dagger of Finesse (1d4, 90/15) <+48 fin>

That still leaves it where an explanation is going to be required for the newbies at one point or another, but it puts the most important weapon characteristics under this system immediately visible.
I think I agree with this - balance/heft are much more significant than +fin/prow.

Please rest assured that there are affixes that affect balance and heft, as well as those affecting fin and prow. In the interests of game balance, the former are rarer and deeper than the latter.
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Old June 2, 2013, 15:10   #115
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Putting balance and heft in as the primary weapon stats does sound reasonable. Good idea.

Regarding having e.g. "<+5 fin>", any thoughts on having pvals generally display short text for what they modify? In Vanilla it's just "<+4, +1>" and the like. v4's items tend to have longer names in general, and I suspect it's only going to get worse in Pyrel...
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