Angband.oook.cz
Angband.oook.cz
AboutVariantsLadderForumCompetitionComicScreenshotsFunniesLinks

Go Back   Angband Forums > Angband > Sil

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old March 17, 2014, 01:43   #1
bron
Swordsman
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Saratoga, California (in the midst of Silicon Valley)
Posts: 483
bron is on a distinguished road
My stupid opinions: smithing

One of the things that attracted me to Sil was Smithing. I like the idea of being able to create your own stuff, and in particular I like the idea that I do not have to "get lucky" and have the RNG provide me with needed gear. Unfortunately, the Smithing rules don't quite manage to do this, because a smith is still at the mercy of the RNG when it comes to finding Forges. A smith can do everything right, and still get hosed by not having any forges be available. This can be mitigated to some degree by using Revelation staffs to look for levels with forges, but now you are at the mercy of the RNG to specifically provide Revelation staffs.

I don't have any real good answers for this, but I'd like to throw out two possibilities for discussion: one would be to introduce a new sort of challenge: No Artefacts, but Better Forges. "Better" could take several forms, but the one I've personally been experimenting with is to generate the forges with one extra use. Since the forges will have 3-5 uses (instead of 2-4), you can always use a forge to make one artifact (and never two). This lets you make more stuff, at the cost of *needing* to make more stuff, since you aren't going to find any artefacts. It seems like a reasonable trade-off. A second possibility might be to have "minor" artifacts that only take 2 uses of a forge. Say, things of difficulty 25(?) or less only take two uses, while 26 or more take three. I haven't experimented with this at all, but it seems like an interesting notion.

I do very much like the changes to smithing of Mithril objects. It makes mithril more valuable (at least for a smith), which I think is a good thing. And removing the stat cost for things like Gondolin swords also strikes me as a good thing. I actually consider making them now, which I almost never used to do.

With the changes to Song of Sharpness, I think it might be nice to make "of Sharpness" be an Enchantment, rather than requiring Artifice.

A change that I personally would like to see, although I freely admit it might be unbalancing, would be to be able to add an enchantment to an existing object. Start with a fixed smithing cost, say, 10, to use an already existing object, and then add the enchantment cost on top of that. Only one Enchantment per object allowed (can't add more enchantments to an already enchanted object). This would make finding good equipment more valuable, and would also allow the player to smith more powerful gear by using a two step process: first make the best <whatever> you can using Artistry, and then Enchant it. This takes 2 uses of a forge, but results in a piece of equipment you couldn't have made otherwise. Sort of like a "minor" artifact. Or possibly even make Enchanting an existing object take 2 forge uses, rather than just one.
bron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 17, 2014, 03:35   #2
BlueFish
Swordsman
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 414
BlueFish is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by bron View Post
One of the things that attracted me to Sil was Smithing. I like the idea of being able to create your own stuff, and in particular I like the idea that I do not have to "get lucky" and have the RNG provide me with needed gear. Unfortunately, the Smithing rules don't quite manage to do this, because a smith is still at the mercy of the RNG when it comes to finding Forges. A smith can do everything right, and still get hosed by not having any forges be available. This can be mitigated to some degree by using Revelation staffs to look for levels with forges, but now you are at the mercy of the RNG to specifically provide Revelation staffs.

I don't have any real good answers for this, but I'd like to throw out two possibilities for discussion: one would be to introduce a new sort of challenge: No Artefacts, but Better Forges. "Better" could take several forms, but the one I've personally been experimenting with is to generate the forges with one extra use. Since the forges will have 3-5 uses (instead of 2-4), you can always use a forge to make one artifact (and never two). This lets you make more stuff, at the cost of *needing* to make more stuff, since you aren't going to find any artefacts. It seems like a reasonable trade-off. A second possibility might be to have "minor" artifacts that only take 2 uses of a forge. Say, things of difficulty 25(?) or less only take two uses, while 26 or more take three. I haven't experimented with this at all, but it seems like an interesting notion.

I do very much like the changes to smithing of Mithril objects. It makes mithril more valuable (at least for a smith), which I think is a good thing. And removing the stat cost for things like Gondolin swords also strikes me as a good thing. I actually consider making them now, which I almost never used to do.

With the changes to Song of Sharpness, I think it might be nice to make "of Sharpness" be an Enchantment, rather than requiring Artifice.

A change that I personally would like to see, although I freely admit it might be unbalancing, would be to be able to add an enchantment to an existing object. Start with a fixed smithing cost, say, 10, to use an already existing object, and then add the enchantment cost on top of that. Only one Enchantment per object allowed (can't add more enchantments to an already enchanted object). This would make finding good equipment more valuable, and would also allow the player to smith more powerful gear by using a two step process: first make the best <whatever> you can using Artistry, and then Enchant it. This takes 2 uses of a forge, but results in a piece of equipment you couldn't have made otherwise. Sort of like a "minor" artifact. Or possibly even make Enchanting an existing object take 2 forge uses, rather than just one.
Smithing is my favorite part of Sil. (I guess other than the general "short game" thing which limits the frustration of frustration.)

You have to game forges a bit with the understanding of the "forced forges" mechanic. I mean you don't have to but it's obvious that it's a good thing to do. 2000 turns after the previous forge level was generated, there begins a chance for a forced forge to be generated on a new level. That chance increases to 100% at 5000 turns after. I always have this in mind, to whatever extent I am sure of when the last forge was generated. It's always a bigger deal when searching for the second forge. At deeper (and larger) levels, forges are common enough that it becomes negligible. But that second forge can be important.

Chasms indirectly and IMO unintentionally made forges more difficult to find, due to that mechanic, which is a shame.

I agree that the changes to Mithril items and Gondolin weapons are very good. Both were suggested here by me. Thanks to half and Scatha for being open to suggestions even by a$$holes.

The suggestion to add enchantments to already-enchanted items was also already suggested here by me. I love the idea and think it would be super fun.
BlueFish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 17, 2014, 08:59   #3
taptap
Knight
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 710
taptap is on a distinguished road
Is there any good reason for the passive aggressive tone here? "my stupid opinion", "suggestion by assholes" - why oh why?

Btw, there was a rather lengthy discussion about reforging elsewhere, where it was generally considered fun and true to lore.
taptap is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 17, 2014, 10:39   #4
debo
Veteran
 
debo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 2,364
debo is on a distinguished road
Scaling the number of forge "charges" by difficulty is sort of neat idea!
__________________
Glaurung, Father of the Dragons says, 'You cannot avoid the ballyhack.'
debo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 17, 2014, 18:58   #5
Scatha
Swordsman
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 414
Scatha is on a distinguished road
Thanks for the comments suggesting mechanics. Often these coincide with things we've already discussed, which helps make it clear that those are particularly natural possibilities!

Yeah, we've wondered about some ability which would somehow allow for more forging. Helping you to find them, or letting you get extra uses, or making artefacts cheaper. The challenge is to get something which is useful without being mandatory for smiths. I think there's a good chance some version of this will make it into a future version.

I'm not convinced about scaling with difficulty, as it changes the relative power of smiths to other builds. I think it would be better to just scale the difficulty. If we don't have enough forges, we should also change that.

Reforging of items to upgrade them is a feature we've wanted since before release. It is likely quite a lot of work, though, so hasn't been a priority.
Scatha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 17, 2014, 19:33   #6
Derakon
Prophet
 
Derakon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 8,918
Derakon is on a distinguished road
Regarding forges, specifically:

1) Is there a level feeling associated with forge levels?
2) Would it be possible to tweak dungeon generation around forge areas?
3) Do forges usually spawn with explicit guardians?

For the (2), I'm thinking specifically stuff like having a red glow (very dim light source, maybe?) that emits from the forge and has a very wide range, possibly even "bouncing" down corridors. And/or lining up corridors to lead straight to the forge room. The latter could be a two-edged sword, since while it'd make forges easier to find it'd also mean there'd be nowhere to hide in the forge room itself.

Aesthetically I don't like that players end up gaming the mechanics to know when they "should" start exploring levels to make certain they don't miss forges. It seems like it might be better to remove some degree of the process of hunting for a forge, possibly in exchange for making it harder to claim the forge directly.
Derakon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 17, 2014, 19:58   #7
debo
Veteran
 
debo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 2,364
debo is on a distinguished road
absolutego also made the suggestion that "crawl-style level feelings" could be used. In Crawl, if a special level entrance spawns on your floor (labyrinth, jail, zig, other stuff), you get a message like "you hear stuff that is cool but the door will close soon!" and if you don't to it on time, you lose that thing.

The mapping in Sil would be "you hear the sound of a roaring forge -- find it before it goes out" (with better english), and then you have to find the entrance before some set # of turns or you lose the forge. Kind of minigamish, but it certainly works well in crawl (imo). Not sure there would be a flavorful way to make it work here.
__________________
Glaurung, Father of the Dragons says, 'You cannot avoid the ballyhack.'
debo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 17, 2014, 20:04   #8
HallucinationMushroom
Knight
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Indiana, U.S.A.
Age: 41
Posts: 780
HallucinationMushroom is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by debo View Post
The mapping in Sil would be "you hear the sound of a roaring forge -- find it before it goes out" (with better english), and then you have to find the entrance before some set # of turns or you lose the forge. Kind of minigamish, but it certainly works well in crawl (imo). Not sure there would be a flavorful way to make it work here.
You could simply have the enemy forging hot pokers, or, armor, or whatever it is the enemy uses its forges for. I mean, it is the enemy forges after all, they aren't really there for you at all. Every so many turns the enemy uses up one of the uses of the forge. You stumble upon Malarky, the one eyed orc smith, you feel dismayed to learn that he has used up all the uses of the forge to make an artifact cookpot that retains its no stick surface and protects against hobbit rocks.
HallucinationMushroom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 17, 2014, 20:21   #9
taptap
Knight
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 710
taptap is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
Regarding forges, specifically:

1) Is there a level feeling associated with forge levels?
2) Would it be possible to tweak dungeon generation around forge areas?
3) Do forges usually spawn with explicit guardians?
1) There are no level feelings. (And level feelings are a completely retarded game mechanism in my opinion. Just have interesting floors not a "boring floor" feeling.)
2) Not sure what you mean, but stealth (hiding) is independent of light. Imagine you are disguised as a vampire or orc or easterling.
3) Usually there are some enemies around forges, explicit guardians only in case of named greater vaults that have a forge as well.
taptap is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 17, 2014, 20:55   #10
Derakon
Prophet
 
Derakon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 8,918
Derakon is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by taptap View Post
1) There are no level feelings. (And level feelings are a completely retarded game mechanism in my opinion. Just have interesting floors not a "boring floor" feeling.)
I tend to agree for Vanilla's current level feelings, but I don't feel it'd be unreasonable to have a "You can hear the sound of hammering metal" feeling when you get vaguely close to a forge. Isn't smithing incredibly noisy?

Quote:
2) Not sure what you mean, but stealth (hiding) is independent of light. Imagine you are disguised as a vampire or orc or easterling.
Right, I was mostly thinking about ways to design the level such that you'd be more likely to notice signs of the forge before you actually stumbled across the room it's in.

Quote:
3) Usually there are some enemies around forges, explicit guardians only in case of named greater vaults that have a forge as well.
I guess it'd be a bit much to always station a territorial monster in the forge room, especially if you want to play a stealth/smith build.
Derakon is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
My stupid opinions: Sil 1.2 bron Sil 11 March 18, 2014 11:14
My stupid opinions: archery bron Sil 5 March 17, 2014 09:18
Sil: Smithing (observations) taptap Sil 56 November 17, 2013 10:52
[3.3.0] opinions and comments kurie Vanilla 47 August 11, 2011 06:35
A warning of opinions to come! Susramanian Idle chatter 0 February 26, 2010 18:21


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:24.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.