Killing Morgoth in Melee?

[Quirk]

Originally Posted by Infinitum

Smithing isn't strong though. Dedicated smithing builds are painful to get through the early and middle game, and the return of investment for all that XP doesn't kick in until well after other melee builds beats the tar out of everything that isn't Morgoth.

I think there's a distinction to be made here between smithing and dedicated smithing. A few hundred XP to get better equipment can enhance survivability for a while, and Enchantment for lore and as a means of shoring up missing resistances is fairly reasonable. If you commit to making smithing kits with early forges, spending on Artifice early, etc, it is significantly harder early on.

16 of the 24 Sil-Q wins used some form of Smithing. How they used Smithing varied; some used Artifice, some used Enchantment, a couple just stopped at the first skill. I would say that that does not look to me like evidence that Smithing is not strong.

Originally Posted by Infinitum

Also, apart from getting enough damage output to actually polish off V most smithables doesn't get appreciatively better than findable items until mid-high 30's (and beyond) in the smithing skill.

Depends where you're finding them and what the items are.

I think the fine items you can craft at 100' with relatively minimal investment are not so easily replaced for a few hundred more feet. Eventually you can replace them, yes, but you can gain substantial survivability until then.

Mid-game I think having your pick of enchantable items such as gloves of strength or mail corslets of resilience or shields of frost makes it much easier to fill holes in your strategy. We're only up to about 14 or 15 smithing by this point.

Artefact-wise, you don't need to hit the mid-30s. A robe of speed is 28, and the only robe of speed in game is vanishingly rare. A mithril shield that covers fire, cold and poison resistances is just 19, and decently better than Hador. Boots that grant dodging, sprinting and exchange places? 22.

Originally Posted by Infinitum

I've mentioned this before, but I still think Smithing is inherently unbalanceable and, frankly, not that interesting (much of what makes roguelikes interesting imo is in figuring out how to utilize with the euipment you find). This goes for any game with any sort of "crafting" system. If smithing is the big reason you're finding Morgoth hard to balance I'd swap out the entire tree for something different instead.

You've said this before, but I'm currently unaware of any other players who share your viewpoint, so I'm probably going to keep on trying to balance Smithing as it is.

Originally Posted by Infinitum

Someone once posted the idea of the player only being able to temporarily knock him out at best (what with him being a god and all), meaning he'd return for the chase sequence no matter what.

This is plausible. Anyone else have thoughts on thta?

[HugoTheGreat2011]

"Temporarily knock him out":

For how long? Imo, maybe for just one gameturn and that's it. Or maybe this can be balanced out depending how extremely good your Will is vs. Morgoth's

[Derakon]

You could set up something like, the first N times you fight him, you just drive him off, and he'll come back again later, then on the N+1th time you can actually kill him. Or you can maybe kill him when you drive him off, if you can deal enough damage before he makes it to the stairs, but this should be implausible. And N, as well as how hard he fights before he's driven off (~= how much damage you have to deal), can depend on how many Silmarils you take. So if you take all three, then he's much more persistent and will keep coming back, meaning you basically have to win four tough fights (three drive-offs plus the "real" fight) to score a kill. While if you take only one, then you might plausibly be able to drive him off once with a much weaker character.

This would change killing Morgoth from being one big fight to being a long sequence of encounters, which might be easier to balance.

[Quirk]

Originally Posted by Derakon

You could set up something like, the first N times you fight him, you just drive him off, and he'll come back again later, then on the N+1th time you can actually kill him.

He's definitely bailed out of rough spots before. The battle with Ungoliant springs to mind. This would make the actual battle take place somewhere on the upper floors, which might be easier for the player if they can easily abort and hop up nearby stairs. It's a line of design worth considering further though. I'm a bit concerned it could lead to things being very protracted if players felt they had to hang round and scum potions if they were two fights in and their supplies were low.

[wobbly]

Had an idle thought on what might work to kill him as is. If you can find Nevrast and something like a great axe of final rest, maybe you can punch through on raw brute force? That bit of extra FA saves a chunk of will that could go elsewhere.

[Quirk]

Originally Posted by wobbly

Had an idle thought on what might work to kill him as is. If you can find Nevrast and something like a great axe of final rest, maybe you can punch through on raw brute force? That bit of extra FA saves a chunk of will that could go elsewhere.

What are you singing for this? Presumably not Staying?

[Infinitum]

8 points in smithing + Weaponsmith, Artifice, Masterpiece is only 6600 xp though (5900 if you go through the hassle of making a Masterpiece Hammer), and gets you a 4d5 Sharp Greataxe with a few picked up smithing boosters, as well as a free action (and see invisible) shortbow (in case you don't pick up that new free action longbow artifact).

[Quirk]

Originally Posted by Infinitum

8 points in smithing + Weaponsmith, Artifice, Masterpiece is only 6600 xp though (5900 if you go through the hassle of making a Masterpiece Hammer), and gets you a 4d5 Sharp Greataxe with a few picked up smithing boosters, as well as a free action (and see invisible) shortbow (in case you don't pick up that new free action longbow artifact).

Largely what is tearing Morgoth up late game is Smithing-inflated stats and extra damage sides. That said, the smithing investments across the rest of the wins are quite diverse, but mostly taken early to take advantage of the 100' forge - some with long-term Artifice in mind, some making early enchanted gear at 100' and upgrading to resist gear or stat-boost gear at the 500' forge, some just grabbing a guaranteed bow at 100'. Personally I tend to find the guaranteed Feanorian lamp a decent pull toward Jeweller.

[wobbly]

These discussions always get confusing as people use the word "smith" to mean a lot of different things. My current run is doing a fair bit to convince me that brute force melee/evasion on the fingolfin is still king, at least in terms of simplicity. Though it'll still be a couple of days before I get a chance to test if it's enough for a kill.

I agree jeweller and extra lights is strong. Getting caught in the dark has always been the no. 1 killer of experienced players. Also there's shadow cloaks, these are just crazy, if you can find a way to still see...

[HugoTheGreat2011]

Originally Posted by Quirk

...the guaranteed Feanorian lamp...

Really? When is it guaranteed? (Sorry, if I never realized this earlier.)