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Old November 17, 2015, 02:54   #1
Derakon
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Scores

Sure, let's have this discussion [again]. How should score be calculated? I believe right now it's simply based on player experience, which I think we all can agree is kind of silly.

Here's my suggestion: you should receive points when you do things that are difficult, when you win the game, and for making progress. Say, for example:

* You gain a point each time you reach a new depth for the first time.
* When you kill a unique, you gain a point if the unique is significantly out of depth for your character. Exact formula to be determined later.
* When you win, you gain 100 points.

That list is a little thin, so suggestions are welcome for accomplishments that are a) difficult, b) non-repeatable (no grinding for score!), c) not dependent on race/class/details of level generation, and d) reasonably easy to measure. Oh, and the reason for the "progression" score is to give players who don't win something to work towards. Obviously that portion of the score is going to be relatively easy for veterans to rack up, but they should be planning on winning anyway.

Then we can apply multipliers to your score based on the constraints you were operating under:

* Forced descent multiplies your score by 1.1
* No-artifacts multiplies your score by 1.3
* Playing as a half-troll multiplies your score by .9
* Playing as a mage multiplies your score by 1.15
* And so on and so forth.

The ideal goal is that your highest-scoring characters should be the ones that you made the most progress with under the most difficult conditions. One nice side-benefit of this is that we can display the score multipliers in-game and thus guide new players about what "game modes" are easy vs. difficult. We can also consider doing away with experience penalties (maybe keep humans as leveling relatively quickly, and then move everyone else to the same experience rate).

As a personal preference, I would like to keep the highest scores under 1,000. When you have huge numbers, it becomes difficult to see what impact any one accomplishment had on your score.
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Old November 17, 2015, 04:52   #2
Monkey Face
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Right now my Hobbit Priest is on level 93 with 7,182,356 experience, so I'm thinking I like the score based on experience :-).

It could be worse. The original rogue scores were based on gold.
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Old November 17, 2015, 17:02   #3
yyt16384
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
* When you kill a unique, you gain a point if the unique is significantly out of depth for your character. Exact formula to be determined later.
How do you determine the "for your character" part? Character level is not good for this because it is not the main factor of character power after the early game.

And some other ideas:

* Add character level to score. This is better than experience because it stays mostly smooth for the whole game.
* For winning characters the turn count should be taken into account. I'm not sure what the formula should be. Probably something like a_big_number/turn_count will work.
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Old November 17, 2015, 17:40   #4
Ingwe Ingweron
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Originally Posted by yyt16384 View Post
* For winning characters the turn count should be taken into account. I'm not sure what the formula should be. Probably something like a_big_number/turn_count will work.
How about Experience/Turncount? This is what it is for comps (although for non-winner comps, comps where there is a winner are usually determined solely by turncount).
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Old November 17, 2015, 17:42   #5
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I agree the turn count should affect the score at winning - you should get more points for winning with a low turn turn and less with a high one, factoring in your class.

You could possibly also aware bonus points for winning with what NetHack dubs "Conducts" - doing or not doing certain things that the game doesn't enforce, but can measure. For instance, completing the game without drinking any potions, or without killing uniques other than Sauron and Morgoth

The score for killing a unique could also vary based on the unique, with monsters that you should never deal with at-depth, like Kavlax or the Terrasque, being worth more.
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Old November 17, 2015, 17:52   #6
Derakon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yyt16384 View Post
How do you determine the "for your character" part? Character level is not good for this because it is not the main factor of character power after the early game.
It is inevitable that lucky characters will have higher scores than unlucky ones because they have higher power at lower levels. I can't think of a reasonable way to account for that; it's a "problem" for the competitions as well. I'd just make a formula that uses the character's level and the monster's level as its only inputs.

Quote:
* Add character level to score. This is better than experience because it stays mostly smooth for the whole game.
On the other hand, we shouldn't encourage players to grind to level 50 just for the points. That's one reason to prefer depth achieved over character level achieved.

Quote:
* For winning characters the turn count should be taken into account. I'm not sure what the formula should be. Probably something like a_big_number/turn_count will work.
Quote:
How about Experience/Turncount? This is what it is for comps (although for non-winner comps, comps where there is a winner are usually determined solely by turncount).
I worry a little bit that this would be "enforcing" speedrunning of the game as the only way to get good scores. Should someone like Timo who takes his time but is nonetheless a good player be unable to achieve as high of a score as someone who relentlessly throws characters into the woodchipper until they get a supremely lucky setup? I know turn count is used for competitions, but I think that's mostly because it's one of the few measurements that's reliably available regardless of variant and competition conduct.

If we were to have a turncount-based score bonus, I'd prefer it be a flat bonus for coming in under some specific number of game turns, like 100k. Then the bonus basically is your "achievement" for getting a reasonably fast game.

Quote:
You could possibly also aware bonus points for winning with what NetHack dubs "Conducts" - doing or not doing certain things that the game doesn't enforce, but can measure. For instance, completing the game without drinking any potions, or without killing uniques other than Sauron and Morgoth

The score for killing a unique could also vary based on the unique, with monsters that you should never deal with at-depth, like Kavlax or the Terrasque, being worth more.
If we can figure out an objective way to score the unique's "challenge rating" independent of their native depth, then I'm all in favor of having modifiers based on how nasty the unique is. I'd be fine with conducts as well -- those would basically be similar to the ironman rules, just not actively enforced by the game.
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Old November 17, 2015, 18:39   #7
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I'm surprised anyone cares about score since this is essentially a single-player game. (Modulo competitions, but those usually have their own criteria anyway.)

That said... how about just recording some stats and letting the player decide how to sort the hall of fame? Some candidates for stats: Turn count, OoDness of uniques killed, real time played, monsters killed, races killed out of all of the races (that is, 100% would be "you've killed at least one of every type of monster), number of turns without rBase, etc. etc.
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Old November 17, 2015, 18:59   #8
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Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
Should someone like Timo who takes his time but is nonetheless a good player be unable to achieve as high of a score as someone who relentlessly throws characters into the woodchipper until they get a supremely lucky setup?
Timo is about control of the game, therefore it is likely that he suffers less damage than other players. How about damage taken being negative to total score somehow?
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Old November 17, 2015, 20:40   #9
Ingwe Ingweron
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
I worry a little bit that this would be "enforcing" speedrunning of the game as the only way to get good scores. Should someone like Timo who takes his time but is nonetheless a good player be unable to achieve as high of a score as someone who relentlessly throws characters into the woodchipper until they get a supremely lucky setup? I know turn count is used for competitions, but I think that's mostly because it's one of the few measurements that's reliably available regardless of variant and competition conduct.

If we were to have a turncount-based score bonus, I'd prefer it be a flat bonus for coming in under some specific number of game turns, like 100k. Then the bonus basically is your "achievement" for getting a reasonably fast game.
Good points. Plus, in a comp, every player is starting with the same setup, stats, race and class. If it were purely turncount/experience on the ladder across every race/class combination, it wouldn't make as much sense. A fragile race mage must play more slowly than a robust race paladin, for example.

In fact, without some way to make an equivalent comparison for each race/class combination against any other race/class combination, all other things being equal, then the whole idea of score is a lot more tenuous.
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Old November 17, 2015, 21:24   #10
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Quote:
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I'm surprised anyone cares about score since this is essentially a single-player game.
Indeed.

I used to look at my scores when I first started playing, but I barely notice them now. I would suggest that the main use of scores is to compare one's own characters' progress, and mainly for newish players. So maybe something simple like character level + max dungeon level + number of different monsters killed.
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