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Old November 17, 2015, 22:37   #11
Egavactip
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Meaningful scores are desirable to measure one's own accomplishments against one's earlier accomplishments or those of others. So I am definitely in favor of score reform.

Leaving aside actual victory, I think score should reflect the ability to achieve as much as possible in as little time as possible.

So let's say winning gives you a score of 100,000 base.

To that, there should be negative modifiers for every X turns past Y (modified further as need be for race/class combinations). This may also sufficiently take into account the need to penalize non-humans accordingly; if not, then there should be an additional penalty for that.

There should be positive modifiers for each unique defeated, modified still further if defeated at a dungeon level higher up than where they normally reside or by something like character level vs unique dungeon level.

There should be smaller & various positive modifiers for each defeat of certain other designated monsters or monster combinations.

There should be small positive modifiers for reaching milestones of 1,000,000gp, 2,000,000gp, 5,000,000 or 10,000,000gp at the time Morgoth is defeated.

There should be a tiny penalty for killing Farmer Maggot or Santa Claus.

Other than that, I don't think there need to be other modifiers.
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Old November 17, 2015, 23:27   #12
krugar
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I'm personally not very interested on scores of any kind in a game where a character success is dictated by so many distinct factors, with a great prevalence on randomization.

I would prefer a table of statistics.

Character Name, Race, Class
Character Level achieved
Depth Achieved
Total Number of Turns Used
Win (Yes,No)
No. Uniques killed
No. of Artifacts/Randarts found
Total Number of Monsters Killed

Score shouldn't really be an important statistic. Frankly no formula you can come up with with be entirely satisfying and will most certainly exclude some corner cases, resulting in constant debates on the forums. Meanwhile I would be more interested in those statistics above and a column sorting feature. That would allow me to compare characters on real data, not on some reductionist mathematical hash we tend to call Score.

Last edited by krugar; November 17, 2015 at 23:33.
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Old November 17, 2015, 23:31   #13
Ingwe Ingweron
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An algorithm to make race/class combinations comparable with other race/class combinations is way above my pay-grade, but without such an algorithm I doubt "score" will be very helpful for comparing characters, even one's own characters.
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Old November 18, 2015, 01:17   #14
Derakon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krugar View Post
I'm personally not very interested on scores of any kind in a game where a character success is dictated by so many distinct factors, with a great prevalence on randomization.

I would prefer a table of statistics.

Character Name, Race, Class
Character Level achieved
Depth Achieved
Total Number of Turns Used
Win (Yes,No)
No. Uniques killed
No. of Artifacts/Randarts found
Total Number of Monsters Killed
Y'know what? I like this a lot. Let's just collect a ton of statistics on each game and then show the stats to the player (not just at end-of-game, but also during the game, of course).
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Old November 18, 2015, 03:00   #15
Galen
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As a new player, I feel that 'the deepest dungeon level reached' is already a perfectly fine score.

The goal of the game is to descend Angband and kill Sauron and Morgoth... if a score is necessary, how about that: score = deepest dungeon level seen +1 for killing Sauron + 1 for killing Morgoth.

But (I think ) players don't need a computer to calculate this score for them And veteran players don't need a score to tell how well their or someone else's character is doing.

I like the table of statistics idea. I actually think new players would benefit more from statistics like total number of common/unique monsters generated/detected/killed, number of 'important' items (artefacts, stat potions, speed items etc) generated/found, than from a score.

Another idea for statistics is 'monster memory completion'. After you learned everything about every single monster in Angband, it's 100% complete.
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Old November 18, 2015, 06:22   #16
jrodman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Galen View Post
As a new player, I feel that 'the deepest dungeon level reached' is already a perfectly fine score.
Counterpoint: I mostly feel that I"m trying to maximize both highest character level and deepest dungeon progress in most Angband games I play, and it leads me to play extremely cautiously. I'm at peace with the strange way I play Angband, but I think this way of thinking encourages playing the game in a way that isn't the most fun.

Last edited by jrodman; November 18, 2015 at 06:38.
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Old November 18, 2015, 22:37   #17
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Providing many statistics so everyone can choose their own scoring method is good, but it would make sense to have a more reasonable default scoring method than the current one.

I like the idea of providing "score multipliers" for different difficulty options, races, classes, conducts, etc, but getting the numbers right would be hard. This idea could be applied to all the methods below.

Personally, I would like the following to be true:
(A) Score never decreases.
(B) Score does not change after winning (so there is no need to keep playing just to get a better score, but there is no penalty either).
(C) If you are ready to kill Morgoth, then delaying it (e.g., to kill more uniques first) does not improve the final score.

B and C mean that comparing winners should be done by a "do less to get a better score" type of method. Some variation of turncount works reasonably well.

Comparing non-winners could be done by a "do more to get a better score" type of method. Deepest level reached is already a pretty good metric. You could add bonuses for killing uniques, or even for the first kill of every monster type, or the first clearing of every special room type (for some definition of "clearing"), and so on. The weight of high-level achievements should be large enough compared to low-level achievements, so that there wouldn't be an incentive to grind for all the low-level ones.

An entirely different approach to the "what is a good scoring method" question would be to consider it from an in-world perspective. The goal is to kill Morgoth, presumably because he is making his minions to do bad things. He should be killed as soon as possible (measured by game turns). Probably the same is true for killing the other uniques. This could lead to the following:
- For the purposes of calculating the score, pretend that every remaining unique dies when Morgoth dies.
- Every unique has a weight, describing how efficient he is at causing bad things.
- Primary score is the sum of weights of dead uniques (how much the player has decreased the rate at which bad things happen in the future).
- If primary scores are equal (which is the case for all winners), then we use a secondary score (lower score is better): Multiply the weight of every dead unique by the time it took to kill him, and take the sum of these numbers (how much bad things they caused before dying).
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Old November 23, 2015, 06:41   #18
brbrbr
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I measure my success as: "quickest time to victory in less number of tries".
So number of turns is good metric (should be compared within same character class combo).
Number of tries to victory is the best one though, how do you measure it?
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Old November 23, 2015, 12:01   #19
Werbaer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rydel View Post
I agree the turn count should affect the score at winning - you should get more points for winning with a low turn turn and less with a high one, factoring in your class.
I disagree.
Score by turncount favours melee playstyle, and punishes use of spells, since you need to rest much more.
My mages never (voluntary) melee or shoot, only use spells (and in some games wands and rods, sometimes not). Playing a mage as a warrior with utility spells gets a better score? No thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick View Post
I used to look at my scores when I first started playing, but I barely notice them now. I would suggest that the main use of scores is to compare one's own characters' progress, and mainly for newish players. So maybe something simple like character level + max dungeon level + number of different monsters killed.
Seconded.
I especially like the idea of getting points for different monsters. No 'Great Wyrms of Balance aren't worth fighting, much less the Tarrasque' - killing one of these should increase your score.

My idea:
+ (monster level) points for each monster killed for the first time (estimation: about 15.000 max)
+ 3x (monster level) points for each unique killed (estimation: about 15.000 max)
+ (max dungeon level) x (max dungeon level), capped at level 100 (10.000 max)
+ a big value (say another 10.000) when retiring after killing Morgoth.
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Old November 23, 2015, 15:49   #20
Derakon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Werbaer View Post
I disagree. My idea:
+ (monster level) points for each monster killed for the first time (estimation: about 15.000 max)
+ 3x (monster level) points for each unique killed (estimation: about 15.000 max)
+ (max dungeon level) x (max dungeon level), capped at level 100 (10.000 max)
+ a big value (say another 10.000) when retiring after killing Morgoth.
Be aware that this metric favors "completionist" players who attempt to kill every unique, even if they have to replay levels over and over again to do so. That's a big part of why I tried to factor in character level into the score bonus for killing monsters, because that makes it far harder to grind for score -- and if it's difficult, is it really grinding?
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