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Old August 29, 2012, 22:07   #1
Kramborn
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Rogue Ideas 2

I thought about rogues and tried some modifications.

The largest change is removing magic from rogues (rogue.patch, rogue_v4.patch).
Because of removal of books, rogues tend to carry and use more devices.
It makes classes somewhat symmetric.
With this change we will have two arcane spell users, two holly spell users and two non-caster classes.
In case of v4, for combat, three of them (rogues, rangers and mages) rely on finesse and the rest rely on prowess.

In order to compensate the removal of magic, and enhance the flavor of rogues, I tried some more modifications.

One is to give extra speed for rogues (+1 for every 10 c-level) (speed.patch, speed_v4.patch). It allows rogues to escape from monsters easier.
This is rather powerful, especially at the middle game, but as far as I play-tested, I didn't feel over-powered.
At the end-game, +4 or +5 bonus is not too much.

Following changes are common for all classes, but more interesting for rogues.

I tried to make the probability of critical hits for sleeping monsters higher (crit.patch, crit_v4.patch).
This enhance the power of stealth.
I also tried that waking monsters can wake up neighboring monsters (wakeup.patch, wakeup_v4.patch). But I felt this makes game too hard.

Finally, I tried to make a character can sense empty spaces in the dungeon (sensecave.patch, sensecave_v4.patch).
This enhance the power of searching.
Searching radius and sensitivity are very small at the early level like following screen dump, and it is not so powerful.
And you can see the map more clearly at the late game, but it is not over-powered because I think everybody has some device for detection anyway. This modification is rather for flavor, and reducing tediousness to use magic mapping.

All these changes are done to differentiate rogues and rangers, to add symmetries of classes and to enhance the flavor of rogues.
In case of v, these modifications may make rogues too weak. But in v4, I think rogues are as good at melee as warriors thanks to the high finesse, so they will not be too weak.

Following screen shots show sensed empty floors by a kobold rogue at early game and end game.
For example, a corridor right of the character in the first screen shot is sensed when he walks.
Other races or classes with lower search skills can not see as clearly as these examples.

Code:

                                                                                
Kobold                    #..................#                                  
Cutpurse                  #..................#                                  
Rogue                     #..................#                                  
LEVEL      9              #..................#                                  
NXT       63              #..................#                                  
AU        71              #..................#                                  
\  = ~((   ]              #########.##########                                  
Str:    15.0                      #.....#####.                                  
INT:    10.0                      #####...'.'.                                  
WIS:     7.0                          #####'#.                                  
DEX:    21.0                              #.#.                                  
CON:    17.0                              #@#.                                  
CHR:     7.0                              #.#.                                  
                                          #.#.                                  
Cur AC    14                                  .                                 
HP   77/  77                                                                    
                                                                                
                                                                                
                                                                                
                                                                                
                                                                                
                                                                                
220m (L11)   Full                                                               

Code:

                                                                                
Kobold                                                                          
Master Thief                                                                    
Rogue                                                                           
LEVEL     50                                                                    
EXP  6667905                                                                    
AU    298498                                                                    
|}=="~[()]]]   .                                               ....             
STR!    35.0      . .. .   ..   .. .... . .... . .........      .               
Int!    27.0                                                  ..    .           
WIS!    27.0   .                        .      .                  .  .     .    
DEX!    ****                            .######+#             ..        ..      
CON!    36.0   .                        ......@.'....K................          
CHR:    20.9   .                         ######'#             ..  .      .      
                                              #.#                   .  .        
Cur AC   225                                  #.#              .                
HP  885/ 885                                  #.#              .       .     .  
SP   30/ 141                                  #<#                               
                                              #.#                               
                                              #p##                              
                                              #....          ...                
                                              #.##.    .      .                 
Fast (+11)                                    #.# .    ..p...    .  .           
1980m (L99)  Study (40)                                                         
Attached Files
File Type: txt rogue.patch.txt (5.1 KB, 137 views)
File Type: txt crit.patch.txt (2.1 KB, 108 views)
File Type: txt speed.patch.txt (1.8 KB, 108 views)
File Type: txt wakeup.patch.txt (1.3 KB, 108 views)
File Type: txt sensecave.patch.txt (2.2 KB, 107 views)

Last edited by Kramborn; August 29, 2012 at 22:15.
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Old August 29, 2012, 22:09   #2
Kramborn
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And patches for v4.
Attached Files
File Type: txt rogue_v4.patch.txt (5.1 KB, 147 views)
File Type: txt speed_v4.patch.txt (1.8 KB, 100 views)
File Type: txt crit_v4.patch.txt (744 Bytes, 90 views)
File Type: txt wakeup_v4.patch.txt (1.3 KB, 99 views)
File Type: txt sensecave_v4.patch.txt (2.4 KB, 92 views)
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Old August 29, 2012, 22:52   #3
Derakon
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I find the "sense empty floors" concept amusing, since you're detecting something that isn't there. Does it reveal the presence of monsters?

The trick with device usage is to let the user know how much damage they can expect to get from devices. Most people don't know that device skill increases your damage output. I assume you increased the rogue's device skill?

Also, recharging devices is only really all that worthwhile for the mage. Scrolls of Recharge Item aren't especially reliable for the good wands. Perhaps there could be a deep staff that was functionally impossible to recharge, but invoked Recharge Item II when used? I do seem to remember reading in the source comments somewhere that there was something that could go horribly wrong if there was a staff of recharging though.
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Old August 29, 2012, 23:14   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
I find the "sense empty floors" concept amusing, since you're detecting something that isn't there. Does it reveal the presence of monsters? .
In my patch, it does not reveal the presence of monsters. Namely a floor with a monster on it is regarded a an empty floor.
(You can see monsters in the second screenshot because of normal ESP)
It may be interesting to disable the sensing floor with a sleeping monster on it.

On the other hand, players can guess the presence of items, when one square remain un-sensed when most of surrounding floors are sensed. But it can be done by characters with very high searching skill.
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Old August 30, 2012, 02:22   #5
Mikko Lehtinen
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Cool!

You made criticals more common against sleeping monsters. In FayAngband and Halls of Mist I've also made them more common against confused and scared monsters. Rogues (non-spellcasters) get a much bigger bonus than other classes, making them experts at dirty fighting.

Rogue is also the only class that can sell items, but only expensive items to remove the game of shopping boringness. You'll probably want to keep no-selling an option for players though, but the price is less options for game designer.
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Old August 30, 2012, 02:37   #6
Mikko Lehtinen
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Hey, what if paladins could not attack sleeping monsters at all? Or would lose their honorful combat bonus when doing so. This would make a nice contrast to rogue's fighting style.
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Old August 30, 2012, 05:54   #7
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Ehh, I've never really liked that "honor before reason" thing. Besides, most of the monsters in the dungeon don't care about or deserve honor -- or are abominations that have to be exterminated anyway. Why should a paladin give a dracolich advance notice that he's coming?
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Old August 30, 2012, 06:50   #8
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Probably not good for gameplay either. Been reading about Knights of the Round Table lately, and all sorts of weird behavior because of Honor are starting to feel natural to me.
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Old August 30, 2012, 07:15   #9
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Probably paladin is not skilled at stealth attacking.

Overall stealth is somewhat strange in angband. I will change it in my variant by adding some aggravation-like effect to many actions. E.g. digging wake up everything, attacking non-stupid monster, and not killing it in one hit aggravates everything in radius also (monster call for help), most dd magical effects will aggravate (too loud noise). Basically only movement, one hit kills, and some special magic will be stealthy.

Last edited by LostTemplar; August 30, 2012 at 07:23.
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Old August 30, 2012, 15:20   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LostTemplar View Post
Overall stealth is somewhat strange in angband. I will change it in my variant by adding some aggravation-like effect to many actions. E.g. digging wake up everything, attacking non-stupid monster, and not killing it in one hit aggravates everything in radius also (monster call for help), most dd magical effects will aggravate (too loud noise). Basically only movement, one hit kills, and some special magic will be stealthy.
While this is more realistic, you'll be functionally making stealth useless / making aggravation much less of a penalty if you do what you described. A more nuanced noise system might be better -- digging's very noisy, but fighting and magic don't wake things up in as large of a radius.

Of course, it's your variant so you can do what you like. Just be aware of the consequences.
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