Concentration build

[half]

Originally Posted by taptap

Impressive. I love that you use Nargil in normal Sil (in mpa-Sil it is an overpowered 0.5 lb +5, 1d7 and still sharp).

I think the reason we are so surprised by this character is that we expect a light weapons character to have light armour (presumably because Dex increases both Melee and Evasion, and heavy armour decreases both of these).

[taptap]

Originally Posted by half

I think the reason we are so surprised by this character is that we expect a light weapons character to have light armour (presumably because Dex increases both Melee and Evasion, and heavy armour decreases both of these).

Yes. I associate heavy armour with shields, but he goes heavy armour and subtlety.

[debo]

It's definitely unique but not really that crazy when you think about it... many low-evasion heavy armor builds trade-off their shield for 2H weapons in the lategame, and trading it off for a 1h-subtlety has sort of the same effect (less prot, more damage).

The other thing to work around is that heavy armor generally penalizes melee score, which directly impacts your damage for a critting dude. However in this case, he gets +6 just for wielding the dagger (+5 and the elvish blade proficiency), and only -2 from his hauberk. That's sort of like using a vanilla kite shield... the shield he did use didn't have any melee or evasion penalties either.

I personally like to go stealthy as well with stabbers... I know it's not required, but you generally get assassination anyways for cruel blow, so it's hard for me to resist going in that direction. Sneaking is one thing that this build definitely is not going to be doing

Edit: I suspect that I have personally been undervaluing Nargil as a melee weapon... I've never really given it an honest go. Might be too late now, as I hear the rumblings of an incoming nerf

[kryft]

I may still be deluded here, but my rationale was that the heavy armor penalty for evasion doesn't really matter if you're getting enough protection to make up for it (as taptap mentioned earlier, protection and evasion serve the same role in most situations. The melee penalty isn't crippling (mine never exceeded -2), and can be compensated for in many ways. Leaving evasion at something like 10-13 frees up experience for other things (I only raised it from 13 to 18 on the ascent because I had that much left over exp). Also, my first attack (or rather first two attacks with Rapid Attack) against an opponent typically had +7 from Focused Attack, and then the maximum Concentration bonus was +7.

I did end up with quite a few evasion abilities, but I didn't take crowd fighting and sprinting until very late in the game, and flanking was never really necessary (although it's certainly good and fun), so I didn't feel that blocking and heavy armour use were all that expensive.

Originally Posted by taptap

Yes. I associate heavy armour with shields, but he goes heavy armour and subtlety.

Actually I went heavy armour, subtlety, AND shields! A shield with blocking is very nice against anything that breathes fire or cold (maybe poison too, but I had Este for those anyway), so I always wore the shield while fighting (non-amethyst) serpents or fire drakes because I found that not needing to worry about the breath was better (or at least more comfortable to me) than the extra critical dice from Subtlety. Against most opponents I would of course rather have an empty off-hand and Subtlety, but I didn't feel that Blocking was wasted in any sense.

[kryft]

Originally Posted by debo

I personally like to go stealthy as well with stabbers... I know it's not required, but you generally get assassination anyways for cruel blow, so it's hard for me to resist going in that direction. Sneaking is one thing that this build definitely is not going to be doing

That's true, but I still managed to be quiet enough that I could almost always assassinate drakes. My stealth bonus was terrible, but the monster's evasion being set to -5 and my +7 focus bonus were quite enough on their own.

Edit: I suspect that I have personally been undervaluing Nargil as a melee weapon... I've never really given it an honest go. Might be too late now, as I hear the rumblings of an incoming nerf

As I mentioned in the comments for my dump, I'm not convinced Nargil needs a nerf. If anything does, it would probably be sharpness, and I guess that's already on the agenda? (Well, I hope it's not simply a sharpness nerf, since that would probably just reduce the number of viable strategies rather than increase it.) I ended up building the character around Nargil in many ways, and I think many other weapons in the game could have been stronger if I had similarly built around them.

[half]

Originally Posted by kryft

As I mentioned in the comments for my dump, I'm not convinced Nargil needs a nerf.

It is unlikely to get nerfed (unless we boost the damage dice on daggers in general). Even if it did, we wouldn't remove Sharpness from it as it is one of the canonical sharp weapons from Beleg's Whetting Song. We also probably won't change the Sharpness attribute of melee weapons as half protection is just so natural. We *are* planning on changing the Song of Sharpness to reduce its effect so as to make it less of a must-buy song. If this leaves the high protection creatures being too tough, then we will fix this by lowering their protection.

[kryft]

Originally Posted by half

It is unlikely to get nerfed (unless we boost the damage dice on daggers in general). Even if it did, we wouldn't remove Sharpness from it as it is one of the canonical sharp weapons from Beleg's Whetting Song. We also probably won't change the Sharpness attribute of melee weapons as half protection is just so natural. We *are* planning on changing the Song of Sharpness to reduce its effect so as to make it less of a must-buy song. If this leaves the high protection creatures being too tough, then we will fix this by lowering their protection.

Sounds sensible. I look forward to the next release in general - I've heard vague rumors that there will be more than balance tweaks!

[taptap]

Originally Posted by kryft

Sounds sensible. I look forward to the next release in general - I've heard vague rumors that there will be more than balance tweaks!

Wait, unique serpents? Better group AI especially for archers? Singing enemies? What?

P.S. I realize the group AI isn't that bad, sadly when you die to encirclement as a beginner you don't always realize it is orcs that actually went a circle on purpose.

[debo]

I just googled "Beleg's whetting song" and got "Did you mean: 'Bella's wedding song'?"

[wobbly]

Originally Posted by debo

I just googled "Beleg's whetting song" and got "Did you mean: 'Bella's wedding song'?"

A song far less bawdy then the infamous "Bella's wetting song". Sorry, it's late & I need sleep.