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Old August 27, 2007, 03:11   #11
zaimoni
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Internally (actually roleplaying the @ a bit), autoscum and squelch are in different categories.

Squelch is basically a subconscious retuning. It conveniently explains why there's TMJ -- all of your predecessors also squelched the less-than-interesting stuff. [Flip-side: should you suddenly have a food problem, unsquelching it should bring the food back onto the screen].

Autoscum...indeed should be fixed by being rebalanced into redundancy. It's a game reality alteration, not a mental model alteration.
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Old September 1, 2007, 05:50   #12
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I think it's the right thing to do. I've also been thinking that stat-rolling should go. How on earth is rolling for stats fun or meaningful in the context of this game? The autoroller is ridiculous. Actually I think the whole 18/XXX system should go too while I'm on the subject, in favor of a flat scale (with 10 internal points for every stat, not just the ones between 18/00-100) and maximize mode removed in favor of a compromise (instead of a constant bonus, the caps are modified). But never mind that...

What do you guys think about the connected stairs option? (birth_no_stairs) I was thinking it too could be removed in favor of most of the time having them connected, but with a chance of it not ("The stairway collapses behind you!") With level feelings reduced it seems a decent compromise.
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Old September 1, 2007, 10:43   #13
andrewdoull
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tigen View Post
Actually I think the whole 18/XXX system should go too while I'm on the subject, in favor of a flat scale (with 10 internal points for every stat, not just the ones between 18/00-100).
How else do you convey the fact that at high stat levels, a potion of Stat gain increases your stats 'partially' close to the next major stat break, without a fractional stat system (e.g. 18/100 system)?

Or are you happy with a 30-400 stat range?
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Old September 1, 2007, 11:02   #14
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Originally Posted by tigen View Post
I think it's the right thing to do. I've also been thinking that stat-rolling should go. How on earth is rolling for stats fun or meaningful in the context of this game? The autoroller is ridiculous.
I agree, now that we have point-based.

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maximize mode removed in favor of a compromise (instead of a constant bonus, the caps are modified).
I don't get it. You mean races will start with exactly the same stats?

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What do you guys think about the connected stairs option?
I always turn it off. Real men don't use stairs.

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(birth_no_stairs)
That's actually ironman.

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I was thinking it too could be removed in favor of most of the time having them connected, but with a chance of it not ("The stairway collapses behind you!")
I like it, although I prefer semi-persistent levels, for they solve some other problems as well (e.g. trap door on a vault level with several stashes of vital items). But I've heard they are not gonna get into V.

> Or are you happy with a 30-400 stat range?

Yeah, I'd be quite happy, if not for the tradition. 400 still takes less space than 18/134 and the 18/00 visual threshold could be mapped to 100. BTW, I like stats.
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Old September 1, 2007, 11:35   #15
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Originally Posted by Bandobras View Post
I agree, now that we have point-based.
The autoroller is slated to go by the next stable release - though I think Andrew's intention was to still have a random choice thing, it would just use the same internal set up as the point-based method so that everyone starts from the same point.

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I like [not guaranteed-connected stairs], although I prefer semi-persistent levels, for they solve some other problems as well (e.g. trap door on a vault level with several stashes of vital items). But I've heard they are not gonna get into V.
The stashes of vital items are the problem, not the lack of persistent levels. If it stops being dangerous to leave things around to pick up later, that makes a major difference to the game. Too heavy but worth a lot of money? Leave it there, I can pick it up just before I use WoR, and so on. It's an inventory management game, and that risk is part of it.

That's for V, obviously. Variants are not Angband, after all.
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Old September 1, 2007, 12:04   #16
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The stashes of vital items are the problem, not the lack of persistent levels.
I don't think they are a problem and I don't think you can solve that problem, whatever you do, for some weak races/classes until mid-game (short of a radical diminishing encumberance penalty and/or the effect of STR on it).

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If it stops being dangerous to leave things around to pick up later, that makes a major difference to the game.
What difference exactly, apart of the difference between quitting the game in frustration or playing on, when the bad thing happens?

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Too heavy but worth a lot of money? Leave it there, I can pick it up just before I use WoR, and so on.
Yes, I agree this is bad and it would be nice to limit the early game trading micromanagement (e.g. a spell to get 50% of the value on the spot, or shops not buying items at all, or something smarter). But risky stashes completely don't change that, because if it's only money you actually don't care so much.

Where the real difference lies in in stashes of artifacts, rare items you long hunted for and then long enchanted and vital commodities for ironman. Also, the frustration comes when you've almost cleared a vault or a special unique level (in O, say) or finished an epic fight and you are teleported from the level just before even IDing the loot. Yeah, it's very funny, but when it happens the second and third time, it's just pure pain.

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It's an inventory management game, and that risk is part of it.
I think this is not _risk_ and it adds nothing to the game, except some cheap surge of blood pressure. I mean, risk is when you have choices and, knowing the odds, you take a risk. I this case, very often (almost always in case of e.g. a Hobbit Mage) you don't have any choice. You can deliberate very long whether you'd rather risk losing the Arvedui or that ego Lance with ESP, but I don't see how this is so very much fun.

P.S. I really like inventory management, so the decision if in the incoming fight I'd rather use Arvedui or a Lance with ESP or both at the cost of -2 to speed is fun to me. But insurance accounting and storage risk management is not what I look for in high fantasy games...

Last edited by Bandobras; September 1, 2007 at 12:24.
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Old September 1, 2007, 18:38   #17
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Originally Posted by andrewdoull View Post
How else do you convey the fact that at high stat levels, a potion of Stat gain increases your stats 'partially' close to the next major stat break, without a fractional stat system (e.g. 18/100 system)?

Or are you happy with a 30-400 stat range?
Well, it could be displayed as 3-40. There is already no difference between 18/04 and 18/05, except tracking how close you are to 18/10. (Alternatively, we could scrap the tenth points. You can simply adjust the "percentage chance to gain" according to how close you are to your maximum stat, so that on average it works out similarly. But then you couldn't guarantee the .1 gain.)

I submit that 3-40 is more natural and intuitive than numbers like 18/142. What is so special about the numbers past 18? 18/0-100 is hardcoded as a special range. But if the max stat is not 18/100, then we might want to make the progression based on an "average to max", bell curve kind of thing.

The whole 3-18 thing might be considered out of place but I'll avoid that discussion.

Another possibility is differentiating between race and class bonuses. A racial bonus could affect your max stat and base stat, while the class bonus only affected your base stat. Haven't really considered that before.

Last edited by tigen; September 1, 2007 at 18:57.
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Old September 1, 2007, 18:54   #18
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I don't get it. You mean races will start with exactly the same stats?
Hopefully my other reply makes it clear what I was thinking about. You still get bonuses at birth. But you don't get a constant +2 STR (e.g.). Instead your maximum stat becomes 18/100 + 2 = 18/120 (or 30).


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I like it, although I prefer semi-persistent levels, for they solve some other problems as well (e.g. trap door on a vault level with several stashes of vital items). But I've heard they are not gonna get into V.
I played Hengband for a bit and it's interesting for sure. But as you say, it would be a rather controversial departure for V. For V, I think making the stairs disconnected "sometimes" would be better than choosing between the two options.
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Old September 2, 2007, 00:23   #19
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A lot of variants ditched the opaque 18/foo system and went for linear statistics. No problem at all. Drop the fractions, always +1 on stat potion. Highly recommended.
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Old September 2, 2007, 00:50   #20
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Drop the fractions, always +1 on stat potion.
As long as you have (unlimited) stat potions. In variants where stat increases are a limited supply, making very high stats harder to increase adds to the strategical fun. And everywhere, that leap in stat increases between 18/00 and 18/50 is really satisfying, until you get used to it.
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