Angband.oook.cz
Angband.oook.cz
AboutVariantsLadderForumCompetitionComicScreenshotsFunniesLinks

Go Back   Angband Forums > Angband > Variants

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old June 13, 2016, 23:04   #211
krazyhades
Swordsman
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 428
krazyhades is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Destro View Post
Cool, a new version. I'm happy with the 555 fix. But, not with clone monster. With the loss of clone monster (And 'dispel' still really being 'Uncounterable Dispel All'), that's gg. I guess I'll go for another nightmare win in the future when the game goes in a direction that appeals to me. RIP.

(Disclaimer: I haven't played the latest version, just going by what I read.)
I'm more or less neutral on removing clone wands...I never used them to grind drops or xp anyways...you get more enough just adventuring the various dungeons.

But Dispel is pretty stupid, yes. It's main purpose seems to be automatically making characters that center around one or more major buffs feel awful and play mostly like worse versions of other classes in many situations. Particularly annoying because most classes that use lots of buffs are hybrids that suffer even more than most because their worse mana pools and casting fail rates make a dispel turn extra punishing. My attempts have led me to decide there is no reason to take a buff realm (especially craft) over one with healing, damage of a good element, or sorcery.

While we're at it, the overwhelming majority of Brand Weapon spells are awful because even on high mages they show up way too late, long after all relevant monsters resist, and all your weapons are already better unbrandable artifacts or egos...and the few great boosted non-ego non-artifacts that you do find you will want to save for artifact creation or reforging, not a worthless branding. Perhaps most egregious is the one in Death, as poison is super useless, the spell shows up super late, and Death is already really bad on hybrids, containing essentially a haste with fear immunity and lowers AC (very serious cost!), the genocides, a reasonable temp resist spell, and that's basically it. But death was pretty bad anyways, because even on pure casters that can use the offense, everything resists, and the power level of the Genocide/Mass Genocide is way too low to rely on...the staff exists at similar power and the scroll at much higher.

Last edited by krazyhades; June 14, 2016 at 01:44.
krazyhades is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 14, 2016, 04:21   #212
Cold_Heart
Adept
 
Cold_Heart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 141
Cold_Heart is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by krazyhades View Post
I'm more or less neutral on removing clone wands...I never used them to grind drops or xp anyways...you get more enough just adventuring the various dungeons.

But Dispel is pretty stupid, yes. It's main purpose seems to be automatically making characters that center around one or more major buffs feel awful and play mostly like worse versions of other classes in many situations. Particularly annoying because most classes that use lots of buffs are hybrids that suffer even more than most because their worse mana pools and casting fail rates make a dispel turn extra punishing. My attempts have led me to decide there is no reason to take a buff realm (especially craft) over one with healing, damage of a good element, or sorcery.

While we're at it, the overwhelming majority of Brand Weapon spells are awful because even on high mages they show up way too late, long after all relevant monsters resist, and all your weapons are already better unbrandable artifacts or egos...and the few great boosted non-ego non-artifacts that you do find you will want to save for artifact creation or reforging, not a worthless branding. Perhaps most egregious is the one in Death, as poison is super useless, the spell shows up super late, and Death is already really bad on hybrids, containing essentially a haste with fear immunity and lowers AC (very serious cost!), the genocides, a reasonable temp resist spell, and that's basically it. But death was pretty bad anyways, because even on pure casters that can use the offense, everything resists, and the power level of the Genocide/Mass Genocide is way too low to rely on...the staff exists at similar power and the scroll at much higher.
While I agree that elemental branding spells are somewhat useless, I can not agree with what you say about Death school at all. I do not know what kind of experience with this school you have but here are some notes from a pure caster (sorcerer) point of view:

1) It gives you early poison resist buff (earliest in game?)
2) It gives you early AoE nuke (earliest in game?)
3) Malediction and Horrify stun greatly
4) Unlimited uses of genocide and mass genocide. I don't you give this the credit it deserves; starting every level with a genocide of inconvenient targets makes life substantially easier.
5) Vampirism True - 300 healing + 300 damage to living in one turn. I don't think you give this the credit it deserves either. This is *the* spell that can keep a mage alive through midgame, melting ancient dragons, wyrms, giants and the like.
6) Animate Dead, Raise the Dead - I don't need this on sorcerer because I have better sources of pets usually, but on 2-school mage or hybrid why wouldn't you want varied and hillarious high level pets that get better the deeper you are, for free?
7) Battle Frenzy claims to lower your AC but in reality it not only does not do that, but it actually gives you 5 AC. This spell is effectively self-haste + self-heroism + self bless combobuff. Most characters would want want want all of this.
8) Id/*id* from book, even semi-reliable, is nice to have in the long run
9) Polymorph V can be useful as well, as it has many interesting properties
10) Nether storm has potentially ridiculous DPS against non-netherimmune targets if you have the mana (I think highest dps from all nukes).
11) Wraithform - this spell alone makes it worth using the Death school.

Last edited by Cold_Heart; June 14, 2016 at 07:52.
Cold_Heart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 14, 2016, 10:12   #213
wobbly
Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Posts: 2,162
wobbly is on a distinguished road
Agree on brands. The only thing I've ever used it for is poison resist on a wizard staff. Disagree with death being bad on hybrids. For the paladin you've got a stun, a resist, a haste+heroism+bless & berserk.

If you're a ranger life is going to have to compete with herbal heal. I haven't played a life ranger to see how they compare but I assume the fail & SPs cost are going to be better for nature there. Their 2nd realm tends to be quite bad.
wobbly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 14, 2016, 14:13   #214
krazyhades
Swordsman
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 428
krazyhades is on a distinguished road
Wraithform is good, but the majority of death is really shitty lategame. Pretty much everybody who wants it has access to plenty of regular Genocide at similar spellpower with the staves. Early game their AoE and Maledection are good, and as I already said yes their early buff spell is good, but haste is unexciting (literally every character that makes it to high level is already permahasted very very easily), their damage spells are heavily resisted by almost every relevant late enemy (demon/undead/serpent), vampirism true is great but only works on life-bearing monsters (which are by far the least important type to care about).

Death later on is far far worse on hybrids than life, and far far worse on pure casters than chaos.
krazyhades is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 14, 2016, 21:07   #215
Cold_Heart
Adept
 
Cold_Heart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 141
Cold_Heart is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by krazyhades View Post
Wraithform is good, but the majority of death is really shitty lategame. Pretty much everybody who wants it has access to plenty of regular Genocide at similar spellpower with the staves. Early game their AoE and Maledection are good, and as I already said yes their early buff spell is good, but haste is unexciting (literally every character that makes it to high level is already permahasted very very easily), their damage spells are heavily resisted by almost every relevant late enemy (demon/undead/serpent), vampirism true is great but only works on life-bearing monsters (which are by far the least important type to care about).

Death later on is far far worse on hybrids than life, and far far worse on pure casters than chaos.
With carrying Death books you save up to four inventory slots (geno device, massgeno device, self-haste device, *id* device), which can be used for other interesting devices or swapitems for extra flexibility. And I don't know what you mean by "by far the least important type" of monsters - elemental "D"s are super good sources of gear and experience throughout the game, and with some resistances you can facetank them with vamp true easily.

It is the most flexible of all schools, providing a good mix of offensive (decent nukes), defensive (buffs, restore life) and supportive (id, summoning, detection) capabilities. Sure, the Chaos has probably better nukes but it has no defensive spells, no summoning and has potentially lethal failure to cast consequences. And Life has no attack spells worth bothering with, no summoning, no haste. So for a build that benefits from flexibility, Death would be a better pick in the long run.

Also, wraithform.

Last edited by Cold_Heart; June 14, 2016 at 22:05.
Cold_Heart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 15, 2016, 19:54   #216
krazyhades
Swordsman
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 428
krazyhades is on a distinguished road
I agree that Vampirism True is incredible against life-bearing opponents, and definitely carries Death high-mages for a long time, but its utility falls off a ton after level 50 (when basically 1/3 of the game still remains). I like the feel of Death realm in some ways, and I agree that you point out a lot of its strengths, but I still think it is worse than any realm except for Arcane and Craft because of the lack of reliable heals and trouble hurting demons/undead without a golfbag of devices. Also, hybrid classes have a *huge* amount of trouble getting Wraithform castable, and it costs them a huge % of their mana pool, and the hybrids also basically cannot use much of the offense/vamp true. Book casting Genocide is in my experience super underwhelming because of the low power level when you get it; by the time you are higher level yourself it is not really better than a Staff of Genocide, and before then a Wand of Teleport Other is generally as good or better.

So basically, yes, I agree you point out death's strengths, but I don't think that's enough to make it better than Life, Chaos, Sorcery, Nature, Daemon, or Armageddon. I haven't played much with Crusade, so I can't judge there really, and Trump is kindof...odd, not sure how to compare it with Death. I think Death is only clearly better than Arcane and maybe Craft.
krazyhades is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 16, 2016, 00:35   #217
debo
Veteran
 
debo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 2,372
debo is on a distinguished road
The only good realms are ones with rockets. The rest are garbage.
__________________
Glaurung, Father of the Dragons says, 'You cannot avoid the ballyhack.'
debo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 16, 2016, 01:21   #218
HugoTheGreat2011
Veteran
 
HugoTheGreat2011's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Mid-Atlantic, U.S.
Age: 36
Posts: 1,064
HugoTheGreat2011 is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by debo View Post
The only good realms are ones with rockets. The rest are garbage.
Example of this: Armageddon
__________________
FCPB: Harness the Tonberry Madness, brought to you by me:
https://youtu.be/c-Nli6izQ0U

My best try at PosChengband 7.0.0's nightmare-mode on Angband.live:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwAR0WOphUA
HugoTheGreat2011 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 16, 2016, 06:52   #219
Cold_Heart
Adept
 
Cold_Heart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 141
Cold_Heart is on a distinguished road
Rockets are terrible in both damage per mana and damage per turn.

All schools of magic are good.
Cold_Heart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 17, 2016, 19:15   #220
murphy
Apprentice
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 99
murphy is on a distinguished road
I dont understand the demands for monster lore, isnt a staff of probing sufficient if you're willing to spend one inventory slot and one turn.

I just discovered I can use weaponsmith powers to enchant a poison needle, is that a bug?
murphy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
[Announce] Poschengband 3.4.0 Released chris Variants 224 August 14, 2015 15:21
[Announce] Poschengband 3.1.0 Released chris Variants 182 November 22, 2014 23:23
[Announce] Poschengband 3.3.0 Released chris Variants 322 November 21, 2014 23:17
[Announce] Poschengband 3.2.0 Released chris Variants 76 May 19, 2014 22:56
[Announce] Poschengband 3.0.0 Released chris Variants 189 March 25, 2014 12:00


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:04.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.